So, it looks like the maximums for a beginner are:
+EV games
($0.77/$100 bet) * (300hands/hr * $1.25bet/hand) = $2.88/hr

-EV games
($0.46/$100 bet) * (300hands/hr * $100bet/hand) = $138/hr
$30,000 wagered per hour, whew!

Lets say I had the bankroll for wagering $30,000/hr. Also, lets say I was an inefficient player, where due to my mistakes I only made $0.23/$10I 0 bet or made 50% of the possible correct decisions. Would I still make $69/hr? Overtime of course! These are just back of the envelope figures.

What is a bankroll for wagering $30000/hr anyway? not that I have this kind of money but I want the ratio for other things.

What is the value of an average player efficiency based on my description? 80%, 60%, 90%

So, it looks like the maximums for a beginner are:
+EV games
($0.77/$100 bet) * (300hands/hr * $1.25bet/hand) = $2.88/hr

-EV games
($0.46/$100 bet) * (300hands/hr * $100bet/hand) = $138/hr
$30,000 wagered per hour, whew!

Lets say I had the bankroll for wagering $30,000/hr. Also, lets say I was an inefficient player, where due to my mistakes I only made $0.23/$100 bet or made 50% of the possible correct decisions. Would I still make $69/hr? Overtime of course! These are just back of the envelope figures.

What is a bankroll for wagering $30000/hr anyway? not that I have this kind of money but I want the ratio for other things.

What is the value of an average player efficiency based on my description? 80%, 60%, 90%

FYP.

If you would make $30,000 in wagers an hour, and averaged a $0.23 gain per hand and played 300 hands/hr, then yeah, you would average $69/hr in the eternal run, but in any given hour you could be up or down tens of thousands of dollars.

Bankrolls and Risk-of-Ruin (RoR) for +EV single-line games can be found here.

http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/appendix/1/

For example, full pay deuces wild (FPDW) with no cash back: One would need 7048 betting units for a 1% RoR. So for a quarter machine this means: 7048 x 5 credits x $0.25/credit = $8810. These bankroll suggestions always assume perfect play.

So for a $100 a hand game of FPDW (a machine that does not exist), this bankroll would become: $704,800. But your hourly rate at 300 hands an hour would also become hypothetically become $228/hr for this game with perfect play.

Efficiency? Do you mean money lost by errors? Any decent player loses < 1% of wagers from errors. Most expert players probably lose 0.1% or less of total wagers due to errors. But if youre playing FPDW and are losing 0.1% wagered due to errors, that is about 13% of the game's total profit (0.76% of all wagers). 0.1%/0.76% =~ 13%

Ok complete newb on video poker and some of this stuff is making my head spin. I've downloaded the iPhone app on and been playing(sometimes the correct plays aren't fun). Ok what to look for in machines when playing JoB. Not one that brings a huge roll, maybe $400 a session or so. Can you expect to get some decent play with that on quarter machines playing optimal strategy? Just looking for something different to play to get some rewards points in between poker and craps. Winning is nice but on my trips to Vegas just looking to get some decent playing time in and suck some free drinks and not be all serious at poker table.

I usually throw $100 in a crappy 8/5 JOB machine. I have played for as much as 6 hours on that $100 and I have been broke in less than 30 min before. I am happy if I get 90-120 min out of $100. I do cash out and leave if I ever hit $175. (however if I get a 4ok which puts me at $200 I play until I hit $175).

First off, congrats on taking up VP without the goal of getting rich quick. That ship has sailed and now the best you can hope for is exactly what you are looking for. Entrainment, free drinks, a decent house edge, etc...

$400 is more than enough for JoB at this level. Unless you are planning on playing more than a few hours you should never go bust. I personally would start with a $20 or $100 bill, and reload if needed. After a few sessions, you will figure out how long your money will last on average, and adjust accordingly.

There are really only 2 important things you need to know at this point.

First is perfect strategy which it sounds like you are learning. If you haven't already, memorize this simple strategy from Wizard of Odds. The name doesn't lie, it is very simple and even The Wizard admits you don't really need to learn "perfect" strategy. If you have never visited this site, go ahead and read up on everything you can. It has a nice VP section and is a great source for info on all gambling games.

Also keep playing with that program (I assume it is telling you the correct plays if you mess up) until you can play a few hundred hands without mistakes.

The 2nd thing you need to know is how to read the pay tables. When you walk up to a VP machine it will list the payout for every possible hand. Like this:



The thing about VP is that these payouts can be changed by the casino, most of the time for the worst. So you have to be able to spot when a paytable is good, and when it is horrible. Lucky for us it is always right there in front of us to figure out. Also, JoB makes this incredibly easy for us. The only thing the casino will usually change on JoB are the payouts for a Full house and flush, and obviously the lower they make them the less money we get payed when we hit it.

As you can see in the picture above, a full house pays 9 and a flush pays 6 with one credit bet on this machine. So we would call this game 9/6 JoB. We still always play 5 credits, this just makes it easier on us rather than saying (or looking for) 45/30 JoB. 9/6 the best pay table you will find and exactly what you are looking for.

However, when you go sit at a casino bar on the strip that is owned by a greedy corporation, you will most likely see that it pays differently. Now a full house only pays 6 and a flush only pays 5 (so we call it 6/5 JoB).

Below I listed the most common games you will find and what they pay back. Its easy to see how much of a difference the best vs the worst game is, and how its vital to be able to tell the difference.

Full house/Flush - Payback %
9/6 - 99.5%
9/5 - 98.4%
8/6 - 98.3%
8/5 - 97.2%
7/5 - 96.1%
6/5 - 94.9%

Obviously casinos would rather put machines that pay back 94% in rather than machines that pay back 99%, so they can be quite hard to find if the casino hasn't already removed them completely. However once you understand the difference you can use sites like VpFree2 to save you some time.

Sorry this got a bit long, I tried to break it down the best I could but hopefully I didn't just confused you more.

No that was a very informative post. Thanks.

so another stupid question. If it says $1 machine is the max bet $5 each time.

Yes. And with $400 to play with I'd stick with quarters (betting $1.25 per hand).

Unfortunately, quarters generally suck if you are on the Vegas strip.

If you aren't caring about playing your hotel or comps, Casino Royale is a pretty good place to go on the strip.

They offer 8/5 bonus poker at the quarter level. Bonus poker is very similar to JoB, and strategy is nearly identical, but pays 40 credits for quad 2s, 3s, or 4s, and 80 credits for quad Aces. This game has a 99.17% return with perfect play.

If you are trying to earn Caesar's comps, stick to Bonus Poker, but you'll have to play 7/5 (98.01%). But at least at the Imperial Palace, they have "All-Star Poker" machines that offer 7/5 Bonus Poker with "Super Times Pay" for as cheap as nickels!

Super Times Pay is a very popular variant of video poker where you wager an extra credit to receive a randomly given multiplier. The frequency and value of the multiplier on average makes the 6th credit wager slightly +EV. So the return for 7/5 Bonus Poker now becomes 98.29% when betting 6 credits instead of 98.01% when betting 5 credits. The multiplier doesn't change strategy at all, just the payouts when you hit your hand. Here is what a game looks like, I did something similar to this on my last trip to Vegas:



Now this is a multiline game, but it's not required to play all lines to make a 6 credit per hand bet. If you want to play multiline poker I would play nickels if the pay table doesnt drop.

If you are wanting to gain MGM comps, your best bet is to play 9/6 Jacks or Better at NY NY.

Thanks. I looked at vpfree2 site and seems there are very few quarter machines left on the strip.

There are tons of quarter machines on the strip, it's just that almost all of them have crappy pay tables.

That's what I meant to say toddw8. Looks like palms has quarter machines with optimum payout, but not on strip and my wife likes to be on strip. Ti has 9/6 $.50 for JoB and 8/5 BP for $.50 and got a ridiculous offer at $35 a night. My wife likes to walk the strip randomly and play $50 hear and there on slots, where as I pick my session times daily at the casino I'm in and play.

Sounds like you should grind those 9/6 JoB machines for $2.50 a hand at TI. That is definitely one of the best mid-strip options for anyone. This is especially true if you are staying there. $400 a session will last you awhile even at $2.50 a hand.

9/6 quarter machines at NYNY. they even advertise them, you can't miss it. No Comps though...

If your in Vegas looking for good VP just take the Deuce downtown one day. I make a trip to Four Queens on Freemont Street on each trip to Vegas. They have plenty of 9/6 JoB and will actually give you comps for playing it.

After my first trip (which was only about 1 hour of playing .25c JoB) I had $40 freeplay waiting for my next trip.

When I finally made it back and used the $40, I played long enough to earn a free 2 night stay and another $20 FP for my next trip.

Also once you are downtown, I think its pretty easy to take a short walk and find some machines that pay over 100%.

has anyone been listening to gambling with an edge lately. I have not listened for about 5 months and are just curious how the show has been without frank. When I last listened it seemed like they stopped talking about video poker and talked more about black jack.

Tringloman, if I'm staying at Caesars property like Flamingo and I play at Imperial Palace like you recommend will it be possible to get a meal or two comped on my room at Flamingo or only if I stay at the imperial palace?

Eek, I really haven't tried to attempt to transfer direct comps among Caesars "sister" properties. Has anyone else attempted this? Successes/Failures?

Generally speaking, I don't think individual Caesars' properties can see the amount of your play outside of its own property, so if this can be done, I would be a bit surprised. If you can't and end up playing at IP, just tell them you want your meal at Hash House A Go-Go at IP. I can't personally vouch for it, but if you search the Las Vegas Lifestyle thread, it is highly recommended.

Also, it's possible that other Caesars properties have 7/5 Bonus with the Super Times Pay (STP). However, once I found it at IP in February, I really didn't bother to look at other Caesars properties. And the difference between 7/5 Bonus Poker and 7/5 Bonus with STP is only 98.01% and 98.29% respectively, so it's not a huge bump. Really the best thing about the STP version at IP is that it is available for nickels. For the highest return machines, it's better to avoid Caesars properties altogether and go downtown like syncmaster just described. The biggest reason you would possibly want to play video poker at Caesars properties is for comp purposes.

Are nickel machines worth playing? I just started playing video poker and its actually a decent time imo. I played the quarter machine and bet $1.25 each hand but only had 2 sessions where I started with $40 each time. I ended up losing both sessions but I was able to play for a decent amount of time imo.

Also with the progressives, typically what is the payout for a quarter machine. I was reading a gambling book and it said 1k-4k. I played at turning stone and im pretty sure the payout was a $1000 which seems kinda meh for a royal flush.

Harrah's Rincon in San Diego has 8/5 Bonus Double STP at the $0.50 level... 99.67 return on that one...

$1000 is the standard pay for a royal on a $0.25 machine... I have seen $0.25 progressives hit at $1020, and I have seen them for close to $2K...



I once hit 4AWK for over $1020 on a $0.25 machine (progressive was up from its seed of $500


Finally got around to resetting my stuff after this site went dark... Saw someone post a 10X STP hit! Isnt that fun!

Here are my 2nd favorite STP brags: First is a royal w/ a 5 times multiplier playing $0.25 ($5K)...

Vs. slot machines, yes. If you have a significantly limited bankroll and looking to reduce ruin over the short term, then yeah, nickels are okay too. Otherwise quarters are generally better because they have higher paytables. Hell, even "short playing" a quarter machine may return higher than nickel machines (usually the case with a full pay poker machine). Return on a 9/6 Jacks or Better machine playing 1 credit is 98.37% (it's 99.54% for playing all 5). In comparison, the return for 8/5 JoB is 97.3% for playing all 5 credits (and many nickel machines only offer 7/5 JoB).

For quarter machines, $1000 is what most Royal Flushes pay out to begin with, with $4000 for dollar machines and $200 for nickels, obv. So if you see a progressive quarter machine near $1000, it's usually not worth playing. When it actually becomes worth playing really depends on the rest of the game's paytable.

Sorry but can someone explain trhe difference between 8/5 and 9/6? I know it has to do with payouts. And am I crazy to think getting paid $1000 is lame on a quarter machine for a royal flush? Not trying to sound insane here but $1000 is a low number imo for hitting a royal. It seems really EV- because I would expect a royal to pay $1500-3k but idk?

Finally I don't play slots.... no way degen enough to do that. I like video poker bc with solid play, you can atleast win and lose a bunch before losing or hopefully hitting a decent win. Can you expect to double your starting bankroll on a machine, sometimes? I know longterm, the way to hitting it big is by getting a royal which is highely unlikely but small winning sessions prolly occur every so often correct due to slightly lower variance then other casino games? Also what do you look for in paytables to see if a machine is paying better than others?

Sorry for this long rant but looking for sound advice from people that know video poker better than I do since I'm a noob.

8/5 and 9/6 are shorthand for indicating the full house/flush payouts for each credit wagered. Technically the 9/6 Jacks or Better video poker paytable when playing max coins is this: 800/50/25/9/6/4/3/2/1/0 for Royal Flush/Straight Flush/Quads/Full House/Flush/Straight/Trips/Two Pair/Jacks or Better/Nonpaying Hands. But we write something 9/6 because these are often are the only two payouts the casino tends to adjust among this version of video poker. Reducing payouts by a flush unit roughly lowers return by 1.09%, while reducing payouts by a full house unit reduces return by 1.15%. So these are the payouts the casinos adjust the most out of convenience.

As for the Royal payout, the amount paid out is more out of tradition than anything. If higher payouts for the Royal were offered, then other payouts would need to be lowered to keep it an -EV game. It only contributes about 2% to the machine's overall payout. Also hitting a Royal is easier than many slot machine jackpots. Royals occur once every 40,000 hands on average for most video poker games. 800 units x 1/40,000 = 2%.

In any shorter session, one can occasionally double their initial stake by hitting bigger paying hands more frequently than average, particularly four of a kinds. Also playing games that have inflated payouts for Quads will help this occur more often; however, you will have bigger losing sessions when you fail to hit them. This is why "Double Double Bonus" is one of the most popular video poker variants today. The game makes Two Pair a "push" instead of a 1 unit win. To counteract this, it pays out quads 5-K at 50 units each, quads 2-4 at 80 units each, and quad Aces at 160 units. Also when quads 2-4 have an Ace, 2, 3, or 4 kicker, then they will pay 160 instead, and when quad Aces have a 2, 3, or 4 kicker, they'll pay 400 units ($500 on a quarter machine). All this from lowering the Two Pair payout from 2 for 1 to 1 for 1 (i.e. a one unit win to a push). But nevertheless, the total return for 9/6 Jacks or Better is still higher at 99.54% while the payout for 9/6 Double Double Bonus is only 98.98%.

Are there any significant strategy differences between JoB and BP. Also what is 50 play BP? I saw that listed somewhere on vpfree2. On a quarter machine what would be the amount of a max play. Is this a good game or bad?

Strategy differences between Bonus Poker BP and JoB are minimal. Strategies for most games and paytables can be produced here. http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-...gy/calculator/

The max bet for a 50 play quarter VP machine is $62.50. I wouldn't play the max unless you wanted to swing 4 digits in either direction. But most 50-play machines allow you play less hands than the max, so if it's the best machine your casino has to offer (8/5 Bonus pays 99.17% with perfect play), it's likely you can play still only one hand unless the machine has a minimum bet requirement. But obviously beware not to hit the max bet button unless you feel like you'll get dealt a stud hand.