OK its me again. The crazy fool that is destined (dreaming) to beat the casino.

I did some google searches and read some websites about video poker to learn perfect strat but some of them seemed a little confusing to me. Does anyone have a link to a site that is easy to read to learn perfect strat. Also is there a simulator like the blackjack one that will tell you if you make a mistake. I know there are free sites to play VP on but I am referring to a sim like the blackjack one.

For those of you that play a lot of VP, what recommendations can you offer? If the machine doesn't hit quickly do you move or just feed it more and wait for the upswing? Today I was playing and stuck a $20 in and went through that in 3 min (1.25/hand) So I moved to the machine next to me, put a $20 in and played for 35 min on the same 20 before losing it. I was playing jack or better today. Do you play this game, or would you recommend another one? How often do you hit a royal, of course you could I guess play a long time without hitting one but from what I read part of the 99.54 edge is based on hitting a royal so if you never hit one then you will be down a good bit?

Clearly the goal is to find the hot machines. Take lessons in dowsing.

You do not understand how the machines work if you are asking if one is "hitting".

Read and listen to all the info on this site before you put another penny in play.

https://www.progressivevp.com/

The radio show archives are very informative and entertaining.

You are probably right that I don't fully understand these machines. That is why I posted the question on here. Thank you for the link, I have started to listen to one show and it is a good listen so far.

http://wizardofodds.com/play/jacksorbetter/

Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to be a douche, that was not my intention.

Im glad you like the show so far. If you are serious about wanting to beat the casinos you should read Frank's book too. To give you an idea of what you are up against here is a quote from one of Bob Dancer's books.

"99% of the games in a casino favor the house, you have to be sharp enough to find that 1% that is +ev, and then have the discipline to play only it."

Ok, that was a horrible paraphrase but you get the idea.

Good luck!

lol no prob, i didn't think you were partaking in douchebagery (not sure if I spelled that correct)

I have listened to 3 shows so far and on my 4th. One thing I am confused about is how he goes in with teams and wins. Am I accurate in my early thinking that a VP machine pays 99.584% so he goes in and plays one machine until the royal flush hits and then moves on to the next machine. The profit he makes is actually the money that other people already put into the machine -0.416% Maybe I have made my own conclusion on this but I did order Franks book already tonight. If my assumptions are correct how many hands could it take before the next royal to hit. Are we talking 6,000 ish and is there a formula for this or is each machine different. I know these are answered in the book but I just can't wait to receive it.

A machine that just hit a royal is no more or less likely to hit another than a machine that hasnt hit one in 80,000 hands.

There is no such thing as a hot, cold or due machine.

Different vp games return different percentages. The game that pays 99.54% is full pay jacks or better, also called 9/6 JoB. This game is not +ev unless the casino loyalty program and or a promotion push it above 100% return.

An example of a game that returns over 100% is full pay deuces wild. It returns 100.76% and is profitable on its own. However, most casinos exclude the best machines from their loyalty programs because the pros would just hammer them relentlessly. The casinos will not offer these games at any higher than quarters for the same reason.

Hope this helps.

I knew this was going to be said, I was just hoping it was not. How do people like Bob Dancer make a yearly profit from these machines. I ordered his book as well tonight so I guess I will see when I get it but is there a short answer to this question.

When they say a machine is 99.x % return, how is this based. Do they have to guarantee that each machine has to pay it out in a certain time frame or is this also figured in the life of the machine.

The return is solely based on the paytable of the machine. If you find a row of machines with the exact same paytable, then every machine has the same return. This is unlike slot machines that can have a row of the same machines that can be "tweaked" to have different returns. The advantage to a video poker machine is that your return is always clearly labeled just by looking at the paytable. Once you do your research on paytables, you will be able to spot a good machine. Most of the differences in return are going to occur with the full house and flush payouts in a lot of the games. When you see people referring to 9/6 Jacks or Better, the 9 is the 1 coin payout for a full house and the 6 is the 1 coin payout for a flush. You will see differences as you go through the casino with these payouts, and you always want to get as close to full pay as possible.

Also, always make sure to bet max coins in whatever denomination you are playing. If you can't afford to bet max coins in the denomination you are in, then play a lower one. If you take notice of the paytable on a typical video poker machine, you are playing at a MUCH lower EV if you don't bet max coins. Take for example the royal flush payouts. Most machines pay 250-1 on any bet less than max coins. That payout jumps to 800-1 on max bet. Even though your royal is the most unlikely winner, hitting them at 800-1 is an important part of overall EV.

Try to find progressives, too. These only help your overall EV, and at times, can raise the EV of a negative game into a positive one! Make sure you check the paytables first, though.. since sometimes they lower the full house/flush payouts.

As for how Bob Dancer and other pros make a lot of money off of VP.. They are playing the best games available with the highest returns. They are also playing at casinos that offer the best loyalty programs, since this is a HUGE part of profit. If you can find a game close to 100% payback at a casino that offers good cashback, good bonus cash, giveaways, and cash multiplier days, then you can grind out a good profit. Remember though, I said "grind," that is what VP is..

One more thing, I suggest Video Poker for Winners or WinPoker as software programs to use to help with strategy in holds. They are both good programs and will help guide you on what to hold in every hand dealt. Paytables won't do you any good unless you are making the correct strategy holds.

If he was making that much, he wouldn't be selling books telling his secrets.

Its kind of like those get rich "schemes" that pop up every few years but really work at first. After it is no longer worth the time/money, however is still slightly profitable, you see hundreds of "how to" guides come out all of a sudden. This is the same way. It worked one day, and no doubt people made a living off it. However the casino catches on, and now the guy is making less than he would flipping burgers. You still find a great deal to exploit every now and then, but the more of a money maker it is for you, the quicker the casino is likely to find out and kill it.

Check the wizard of odds link posted above. A lot of great info all over that site. I would read every page you can find. Well, obviously you don't need to read the strategy on Caribbean Stud (for example) if you never intend on playing it.

The 99% is based on playing perfect strategy. Just like you can find a strategy card for blackjack, you can find one for video poker or almost any game. Following this chart will give you those odds in the long run. Your expected return is different (worse) if you don't follow this strategy. If your goal was to lose as much money as possible, you could throw away your first 5 cards every time and your return would go WAY down. However, there is still a chance you get lucky and win. The machine is just dealt fairly, your odds depend on how you play.

Just like in blackjack, it can be the worst game in the house if you chose to hit your 20 or double your 16 every time. However, its one of the best if you go out and learn the strategy. The reason these games still run even with these small edges, is because people chose not to learn them. I'm playing blackjack or video poker with less than a 1% house edge when I gamble. The guy next to me, is playing the same exact game but with a 5% house edge.

I bought WinPoker for $10 from the app store and downloaded it onto my iphone. You can practice in training mode in any of 31 games and even change the pay schedules to match whatever game you will be playing in the casino. It is easy to have the game mastered by the time you sit down to play for real and if you come accross a hand you arent sure of it is fast and easy to plug the hand into your phone and get the right hold.

I highly recommend using this tool.

Not true. Having proven his point, selling books, software, and online seminars is probably much less work.

Passive income >>>> grinding out your money. Every time.

a lot of great info in this thread as always.

One thing I didn't see mentioned though is, how is it done. Do people who make money sit there and play until they get the royal and hope it wins more than lost so far? On the podcast I just listened to he mentioned a royal cycle can be as many as 30,000 hands.

I have a few general questions about VP. Are there really no deuces wild machines over 25 cents? how about 10/7 double bonus. And why would anyone want to play games other than these if these pay the most? I assume you would need them to have a big progressive to play another game. I live in new jersey and can go to Atlantic City or Pennsylvania Sands. Are there any good games there or do I have to fly to Vegas then take a cab to Pahrump or something?

The ones who make money on VP don't think of "per session." Making money in VP is a long-term goal of the VP pros. It is true that royal cycles take quite a long time, but your number is a little low. Most games, the royal cycle is going to be around 40,000 hands. Some sessions are going to be losers, and some are going to be winners. By making the correct strategy holds every time without deviating, over the long run you can make a profit. Results are going to vary from person to person because there is a "luck" factor. In my play, I have gone 70,000+ hands without a royal, and I have also hit 2 within 1 hour before. It all depends on how you approach it. If you're in it for the long haul, it will even out over time, and the people playing correct strategy will be winners.

Another thing, royals are not always necessary to make a profit, even over a long session. I have had several winning sessions with just hitting quads several times, especially while playing certain games like Double Double Bonus where you get paid quite a bit for certain quads.

One last thing I wanted to mention is the importance of the slot club loyalty card while playing video poker...

Since I don't live as close to AC anymore, I don't get down as often as I used to. I used to play 5 times per week for a few hours a day after work. One of the last months I kept track of my stats were as follows:

I played 21 sessions that month, and with my OWN money, I ended up with a loss of around $275.

Now, with the loyalty card, I got the following:
1.) Over $800 in bonus cash (which I used in my sessions. Bonus cash must be wagered before cashing out.) This lessened my losses.
2.) Over $600 in cashback. This varies from casino to casino now.. some places allow you to still cash this out without wagering, and some now require you to wager it first. I didn't have to wager this.. I kept this money.
3.) 4 giveaways.. I used these for Christmas gifts. There was a luggage set, a pot/pan set, some silverware, and a glass vase. Not really cash, but it saved me money on buying gifts for 4 people!
4.) 21 free meals with comps and a starbucks coffee every day for free. Hey, we need to eat/drink, right?
5.) Participation in 2 slot tournaments. I didn't win in either this month, but they are free to enter, and you can win a lot of money in these if you get lucky. I have won quite a bit in these in the past.
6.) Free rooms.. if you play regularly, you can get quite a few of these. I didn't bother to stay often, but the option was always there.
7.) Sweepstakes entries galore.. I always had a ton of entries, but never won anything other than $500 once a few years ago in a cash sweepstakes..didn't win my Mercedes, which kinda sucked.. lol

Total net cash: +$325 considering my money loss, plus the $600 I kept from the cashback. It was worth more than $325 though with all the free food, comps, etc..

As a sidenote, I did not hit any royals this month...

There are machines that have deuces wild that are over 25 cents, however, the paytables are generally not as good. In Vegas, they used to have a ton of $1 and $5 deuces wild machines that were over 100% payback. Once the pros started grinding these, they took most (if not all) of them out. You can still find some in the 25 cent denomination since the pros will most likely not bother playing a denomination that low and they are filled with people that do not play correct strategy. The same goes for 10/7 double bonus...

As for AC and PA Sands, the better machines are in AC. I have seen the paytables at the PA Sands and they are not very good compared to the ones I have seen in AC. However, the ones in AC in general are not as good as Vegas.

There are some positive games in AC, but they are very hard to find, and equally as hard to get on. Now it has been several months since I have been to AC, so I am not 100% sure if these machines are still there, but there were some full pay deuces wild games at Borgata, some positive double joker machines at Caesars.. also some Double Bonus Double Jackpot machines at Harrah's that used to be the best game in AC (Note, the machines do not participate in the loyalty program so you get no comps, no cashback.)

In all honesty, the best games in AC are usually going to be the progressives. If you have a software program such as WinPoker or Video Poker for Winners, you can input the jackpot amount for each paytable to see what amount the progressive needs to be to be a 100% or greater game. There are many times where you can find even quarter games with a payback of 101% or more. One time I even found a progressive joker poker game that at the time, the payback was 107% based on how high the progressive was (It was the highest progressive I have ever seen on these machines..) If you do your research on paytables, you can get an idea of when to play these games which normally would be negative EV games.

-There is most likely not any higher coin on the +EV games. On the other hand, sometimes to get the best payout machines you have to play much higher coin. For example, I have a local casino where the best game is 9/6 Jacks or better (slightly -ev), but you have to play $2 or $5 coins ($10 or $25 bet total per hand). If you go to the quarter machines, it becomes 8/6 Jacks or Better.

-Maybe its the best game they can find, the ones you mentioned don't exist in my state. Or maybe they don't have a clue. Just because they are playing VP doesn't mean they are not there just to gamble. They probably just think its another slot, sometimes they are right.

-Not true on progressives, although they can turn a unbeatable game into a beatable one, they are not required to make a profit. For sure something to keep your eye on though. If you take the 9/6 JoB that I mentioned above, playing perfect strategy pays back 99.54% . Really close to full pay, but not quite.. If you factor in free play mailers, promotions (maybe they are giving away a hotel/buffet for 200 points), etc. It could come out to be slightly profitable. Basically you are taking advantage of all the perks that come along with playing a lot at a casino.

Check out this site, it tells you the bet payout machines for almost every casino in America. http://www.vpfree2.com/

My main piece of advise for everyone reading. Don't think of this as a way to make a living or get rich beating the casino. At most, it is a way to get a high roller treatment and come very close to break even. All while going to the casino daily, which can be really fun for some people. I mean, people do this daily anyway, the only difference is they drop 5 figure amounts each year in slots/pits.

these are great answers thanks guys. I guess the best thing to do is look for jacks or better 9/6 with a progressive. that way I can hopefully get it over 100% and get some comps/ free rooms etc. Hopefully I can find these at 1 or 5 dollar machines in borgata.

what I meant when i said "why would anyone want to play anything other than deuces wild or 10/7 double bonus?" I meant among players trying to grind. I understand any given individual in a casino could have a hundred different reasons for sitting down to play. I meant people like on 2+2 usually would take only the +EV games. I think I understand now. thanks

Rammy and sync thank you for your responses. The quote above is exactly what I am looking for. I posted another thread about playing roulette and my main motivation is comps. I used to have the highest level card (they gave it to me when the casino opened because I mentioned someone else that was given one) I was able to keep it for the first year the casino was open and the extra stuff I got was great so I am trying to get back to that level without spending a ton of coin. I understand I will lose money in my adventure and I am fine with that as long as it doesn't cost me 20k.

Rammy, when you played everyday what was your strategy. Did you play at the same machine daily and did you move to different machines throughout your session? When you went in for a session when did you leave (did you stay for x amount of time and leave no matter what, or what was your reason for leaving each night)?

When I went to play daily, my strategy was very simple, just play for the allotted time I set for my session and then leave.. I would usually play a different game everyday, but the only reason for that is that I would go throughout the casino to all the known progressives and check for the one that was the highest EV based on each particular game's paytable. For example, the casino I went to would have a progressive on double double bonus poker, joker poker, deuces wild, etc.. Knowing the paytables of each machine and when the progressive meter of each game would make it close to or above 100%, that would be my choice of the day. If none of the progressives would be anywhere close to 100%, I would look for the highest return game I could find and play my session there.

Because playing video poker is a grind and a continuous session, I would never stay any longer than I intended to (unless I happened to get lucky enough for a handpay and had to wait for a slot attendant! ) My wife had slightly different work times than me as well, so I would need to go home at a certain time anyway.

The only deviation I would make in my play would be to sometimes play the multihand games (i.e. super times pay) if I was having a good session. There is a lot more variance in those games, but the potential for getting big hits is higher. I had some nice handpays on those machines.

The one thing I learned very quickly was to always stick to strategy and never deviate based on hunches. Big payouts are never "due" and just because a machine just hit does not mean it will not hit again. Your odds of the very next hand being a royal flush after just hitting a royal flush are exactly the same.

Rammy,

Thanks for all the great info you added to this thread. Your strategy for deciding what to play in the above post is almost exactly what I have used recently at a local Indian casino. I must be doing something right!

I would like your opinion on something. I am going to Vegas for 4 days in a couple weeks. I am paying for two nights at the Palms and have 2 comped nights at Aria with $100 free play.

I am allowing myself a 3k bankroll so I am limited to quarters. I would like to get as much of the 2 nights at Palms comped as possible, yet I want to play the best machines too. The best machines for me are the FPDW progressive bank but I know it will be almost impossible to get comps playing them.

It was suggested that I find 3 play 9/6 JoB and play that which will allow me to run more money through and thus earn a lot of comps with low variance.

My question is what is the difference between my theoretical win playing the FPDW vs the theoretical loss on the 3 handed JoB? Ball park obv since there are unknown variables with the progressive.

Taking into consideration the goal of comped rooms how would you divide your play?

99.54% is the house edge on 9/6 JoB, so you lose (on average) .46c per $100 bet.

100.77% is the house edge on FPDW, so you will win (on average) .77 per $100 bet.

Not sure on comps for FPDW, you might get little to nothing, but 9/6 should give you 1 point for every $10 coin in. This can also very from casino to casino, I think there is one in my area that gives 1 pt for ever $45 coin in.

If you goal is to get comped I agree that JoB 3 line is probably the best game, because it will reduce variance while letting you bet more coin. Also, I would say your chances of losing less (value) than the rooms are worth on JoB are better than making enough (value) to pay for the rooms though FPDW. That is if they will even comp your room for free for playing JoB, not sure on this.

I hope this helped a little, I'm not the best math guy and have no experience with getting stuff comped, other than future comps I expect the casino to send me. This might be another thing for you to consider, do you want to be offered another room in 6 months/next year?

Some people in the Las Vegas Lifestyle forums might be able to help you with specific questions about casinos and their comps.

Yeah, I think your assessment is correct. I am going to give the 3-line JoB the bulk of my play. I will still play a little FPDW just because it is more fun.

I will let everybody know how it works out.