I've kept track of a little over 1000 hands at my live cardroom. I generally play 10=10 and nothing on trips although I sometimes randomly put out a 5 when I haven't hit in awhile. And I have bet upwards of 25=25 on occasion.

So far out of the 1000 hands I've played, had I put 5 on trips every hand I'd be down over $1700 total JUST on this trips bet. I have not hit better than a full house on the hands I've kept track of (I did hit quads once when I wasn't keeping track). I just can't see this bet being profitable long term in any way unless you are a super luckbox and can consistently hit quads or better.

I don't 4x the bottom of the ranges but I do 4x all aces, all suited kings, K9o+, Q9o+, J8s+, 44+.

I fold about 20-22% of the time which I think is standard.

Most of the people I play with don't understand the hidden losses in the game, such as when I win a 4x playing 10=10, the most I can win (barring a straight or better) is 50, but when I lose a 4x I always lose 60. But in most cases when I 4x, I will be around a 60-65% favorite over the dealer, so if I can win 2/3 of those, I will generally do well in the session.

Another "hidden loss" is the times the dealer doesn't qualify and thus doesn't match the ante. So many players who have even a hand as strong as top pair are begging for the dealer to have the nut low. Obviously the best way for the dealer to qualify is a pair on board but it sure does suck when I have a really strong hand (2pr+) and the dealer rolls over J-high or some such garbage. That costs me 1BU and does add up over time.

My overall record is as follows:

4x: 175-94-12 (+3400)
2x: 155-58-6 (+2665)
1x: 154-120-14 (-690)

I have the best record in the 2x category (makes sense as I have the most info about the strength of my hand). As you can see I am above .500 in 1x but down significantly due to the fact that a lot of my 1x calls are with high-card and the dealer can't qualify. So when I win those I only win 1BU but when I lose I always lose 3BU. That's when it comes down to the "21 and less outs" rule and just hoping to pick some up. I haven't analysed whether or not its worth it in the long term to call with hands like Q-high and J-high, though.

As far as trips goes, I seem to hit trips or better somewhere around 10% of the time. Occasionally I will lose a hand with trips or better, but that's only happened something like 4-5 times total. Dealer gets trips or better at about the same rate, which makes sense. I have done some tests where if I hadn't hit trips in 15 or so hands, I will play a few trips in a row hoping to pick one off, but even this I think is pretty pointless because if I play 5 in a row and then hit one, I won't make enough for it to matter and the risk vs reward is not in my favor. The people that bet like 10=10 and 20 up top almost always bust pretty quickly. I do have to sometimes deal with needling from others when I hit trips or better "Ohhh, no trips bet????" I usually counter with "How come nobody congratulates me on NOT betting trips on all the hands when I don't hit it?" That usually shuts them up.

Here's my trips results-

T: 37
ST: 25
FL: 25
FH: 27

So, to the previous poster who said you can only win playing big up top, lets try this scenario. For every 100 hands, you're going to hit trips or better 10 times. By my results, I hit trips a little more often than the others, and the others hit at about the same rate. So lets say in 100 hands I'm going to bet 1BU on trips every hand. 90 hands I'm going to lose 1BU.

-90BU

In the other 10 hands, lets say it works out evenly that I hit 3 trips, 3 straights, 2 flushes, and 2 boats. In my room, that would pay out like this:

T: 3x 1BU = 3BU, 3BU x 3 = 9BU
ST: 6x 1BU = 6BU x 3 = 18BU
FL: 8x 1BU = 8BU x 2 = 16BU
FH: 10x 1BU = 10BU x 2 = 20BU
TOTAL: 63BU

PROFIT/LOSS = -27BU

Now keep in mind these numbers are based on running what I believe is to be average. Even if you got an extra two boats in there, you'd still be down. This is why I almost never bet trips.

So for all my research, and I know 1000 hands is not a huge sample but I think its good enough for this game, the only way to win at this game is to:

1. Rarely, if ever, bet trips
2. Win your 4x hands at at least a 2-1 rate
3. Keep your folds at around 20% or less

You've ran bad in your 'simulated' trips betting. $5000 trips bet at 3% HA = $150 (30 betting units) expected loss. Unfortunately the house advantage is calculated using a full cycle of hands so if you're in a dry spell of no royals straight flushes or quads you can easily be down way further than expected.

The only reason to play trips is because you have an edge somewhere else in the game and its providing cover for you.

There is an ultimate texas hold em game in mexico with three different rules. First, on the turn you must decide whether to put 1 play bet or fold if you have checked preflop and the flop. The second different rule works great for the players. If the dealer does not qualify, you win your play bet regardless of your hand (even if your hand loses to the dealer's hand!). The third rule is that you only win the blind payout when the dealer qualifies. So as long as the dealer does not have a pair or better you automatically win. If the 5 community cards have a pair the dealer qualifies. I would love to know what is the edge betting optimally with these new rule.
I am 4xing hands with 47% equity or better such as k2+, j5+or better, 78s, etc. These borderline hands that are not supposed to be 4x in the regular game I think should be 4x in this game due to the fact that you will win when the dealer does not qualify. That is my intuition but would love to play a gto strategy for this game cause I've been running so bad I am starting to question if there is an edge. If anyone can create a gto strategy i will release location and name of casino. Pm me if you want a picture of the rules.

Sometime this summer will mark the 3rd anniversary of my introduction to this vile game. Since I started playing UTH, I have never hit a royal, and today made the 4th one I've gotten in a cardroom during that time. I recently hit one in Omaha as well for good measure.

Now granted I've gotten in far more hands of cardroom hold'em than UTH, but all of the royals used both hole cards so, yeah, cool story and all that, where the hell is my UTH royal???

What about Headsup Holdem

great post alec!
how do you usually keep track of your hands easily at the tables?
do you have an efficient way of taking notes or sthg?

also: bump

The pay tables are different. House edge is more than 3%. It's like 8-9% at my casino and I'm sure most others.

And you will never have an edge anywhere else besides running good.

I just found this thread and read all 13 pages. It's really interesting to see the evolution over the course of 7 years of posts, including Steven How debuting his strategy. I've only been playing UTH for a year, but it has become my #1 Go To game. I like the strategy and follow it closely. I don't vary my bet size in a session, but will change up on new sessions. Having the right session bankroll is important as surviving the swings is key. I'm still working on what works best, but here are two bookends (larger - smaller):

1) 20 X (Ante+Blind+Trips) (e.g. - 15/15/5 = $600) or
2) 10 X Maximum Bet (Ante+Blind+Trips+4X Ante) (e.g. - 15/15/5 = 15 + 15 + 5 + 60 = 95 X 10 = $950)

Bon Chance to all of you fellow UTH players.

I'm surprised how naïve this forum is with respect to advantage play. Off the top of my head I can think of five ways a player could get an edge over the house.

Special promotions
Hole-carding
Edge-sorting
Dealer error
House doesn't force the ante to equal the blind bet (should never happen but IIRC it has before)

Player collusion helps a little for this game, but IIRC not enough to generate a player edge.

If you read back through the posts (and there's a bunch), hole carding and dealer error are discussed a good amount. There is also one or two mentions of ante > blind too. Edge sorting - nope not there and I don't think my eyes are good enough to do it anyway.

Now special promotions as a way of achieving AP. Please share some specifics. Are you talking about rebates on losses and discounts on markers, or something else?

Probably something like 5X Points day where table games count and you're able to sit out hands at the table (need to take a phone call) or also get up for extended periods of time but still get rated. If they're rating you at 60 hands per hour but you're really only playing 30 per hour and your points are multiplied, that's probably enough to overcome the house edge. Easy enough math to work out.

Well, maybe. If you're gambling to make money, 5X points really isn't AP. It doesn't give you any advantage that will help you win 1-2-3-gazillion hands, reduce losses or increase the money you put in your pocket. If you're gambling for comps, that's a different story, but comps should be a by-product of gambling, not the primary goal. IMHO, of course.

If you can liquidate those points into more $$ than it cost to earn them, then yes it's AP.

You guys played heads up holdem where the odds bet gets you a bad beat for straight or better...

Got back from Vegas a couple days ago.

- I don't scout around for weak dealers, but noticed what had to be one at one of the center-strip properties. Just the way they were handling the cards, they had to be flashing a hole card to seat 1 and maybe seat 2...which were taken by a married couple with the wife in seat 1. They were not paying attention at all and the wife busted and remained seated in that seat. Oh well.

- Orleans still has the 8-6-5 Trips pay table. I'm assuming you pretty much have to go off-strip to get that (unless SLS still has it...is SLS still open?). Miss the 9-7-4 at PH because that is also my favorite place to stay.

Definitely my go to game while drinking.

Dealer error helps for sure.

Stuff like getting paid with QT vs. Q5 on a AQ733 board

My fondest memory is early on at Imperial Palace in Vegas, I was drunk of course and lost the hand on some runner runner BS or something and I slammed my hat on the ground and as I was reaching down to pick it up the dealer started paying me!

It was a goldmine during the poker boom in Vegas. All these pit dealers who never dealt poker now having to read poker hands. So many errors.


In my QT example below, if you are drinking you can play dumb as well to help lead the dealer to an error. Especially if you are talking when you have a legit winning hand. Say stuff like 'I got that beat' or "I got a better kicker than you' etc.

One thing earlier in the thread that was discussed with holecarding them is folding really strong hands. Locally where I play, the dealer turns over all folded hands, so it would become pretty obvious if you were trying to fold the 2nd nuts or an underfull or 2nd pair or something.

legit loled at this
makes it even funnier that it was that **** hole ip

For awhile now, I have been marinating on the possiblities of collusion play making this game +EV. Plenty of work has already been done in this area. I have researched a bunch of sources online that have discussed UTH collusion and strategy, and every single response to those studies in the forums' response sections. The conclusion the experts have made is that while collusion does cut down on the house edge, it's not enough to overcome it and make it a +EV game.

I think they might be wrong. There is a glaring hole in the work, and I believe that a very obvious opportunity is available. Unfortunately, I have only a basic understanding of computers, programming, etc. and this would require creating and running hand simulations, and I wouldn't know the first thing about doing that.

Would anyone with this ability possibly be interested in pursuing this?? PM me and I'll share my thoughts.

Through your research, I am sure you have read the analysis and discussions on discountgambling(dot)net. Mr. How does a lot of the math proofing for a lot of the carny games in casinos today. He pretty much determined that collusion in UTH will not make it a +EV game. Yes, it can certainly help with a some key hand holdings, but overall, it does not help enough. Being able to catch a glimpse of the dealer hole cards and/or any of the board cards will help much more than seeing your fellow players cards. There are even casinos that deal all players cards face up...Barona in Southern California is an example. At Venetian/Palazzo in Vegas, you can play two hands, one of which is dealt face up. The casinos would not do this if the EV could swing so drastically to the Players advantage.

If you want to exploit collusion, try playing Mississippi Stud, or High Card Flush...the latter of which would be difficult due to the sheer number of cards in play.


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Yes, I have read all of How's work on discountgambling.net. I believe that there is a glaring omission in the approach to his work, something he hasn't taken into consideration. Anyone out there with knowledge about running hand simulations and an interest in pursuing this further, please PM me.

This work has been done (and published). PM me if you’d like a link.


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Are you talking about Elliot Jacobson's work?

AFAIK he ran a simulation to estimate the player edge for a full table game with perfect knowledge of all player cards. He didn't publish a practical strategy, though.

If you have a link to this that is NOT at 888casino, I would like it as well. I can not access that site.

Any kind of advantage that can be squeezed from seeing all players cards is so small, it doesn’t make any kind of impact to net results...that’s essentially what How and probably Jacobson noted. This is probably more so now than in years past, given lower table maximums and lower table aggregate payouts. Over a lifetime of playing with adjusted strategy, with the knowledge of all the other players cards, I would guess you probably end up one or two units better than not knowing. Over a lifetime, that’s nothing. There are already casinos that deal this game faceup to all the players (Barona in SoCal is one example). There are already casinos that let players play 2 hands, one of which is dealt face up (Venetian/Palazzo is an example). To top it off, Barona has one of the best Trips paytables for this game! Trying to exploit this part of the game just doesn’t seem that good...it would be like plowing an entire field, just get one potato.


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Jacobson's conclusion is that with full knowledge of other cards and implementing the info perfectly, it yields a 2.5% advantage to the player. However there is a vital detail he somehow completely leaves out. Is that 2.5% of just the ante bet, or all action bet? If it's the former, then yes, it would not be worth it. But if it's the latter, then there is the potential for opportunity, since the average bet is 4.2 units. So playing $25 min at the ante means there's actually an average of $110 in action, so a profit of $2.75/hand. At 30-35 hands/hr, that's pretty damn good money.

Obviously in a practical real world setting it would not be possible to recreate perfect info and perfect decisions based on that info. But if one could recreate a simplified but effective strategy, there may be a worthwhile edge.

Of course, this is all predicated on whether or not that 2.5% edge is based on total action. Does anyone know if Jacobson responds to emails?

Hit a royal the other day with $50 on the blind bet. $25000 right? I thought so too. One week later they come up to me and say I owe them $3800 (after tax) because the little sign says "max payout $20000." oh well.
dude: what should i tell them?
me: tell them you did your best.
NOT MY FAULT.

brag: won the club royal
beat: didn't bet the light or the trips bonus. (missed out on $5000)
variance: they want my money back