This thread is for blackjack CSM's only....

Now obviously the very first card dealt is not 'random'....

my question is, is card 2, or 3, or 4 etc....

I.E. is there a 'tray' of 'x' number of cards being used before the random ones being shuffled in come up....

obvious follow up is does this differ with different makes and models?

Any casinos employees out there can answer this?

Many Thanks

Are you aware these machines were beaten when they just came out because of this?

I wrote about this in "Get The Edge At Blackjack" years ago. The games can still and are being beaten. The size of the buffer is small, but that isn't a problem for those with a creative mind.

Cliffs plz

i guess the buffer zone is about 16 cards.
i have played one2six machines about 10 times for 30 minutes sessions at casinos where the player has advantage of the top + trying to count in order to make the edge bigger.. i know the sample size is small but i almost never won. it was like playing -3 -5 while it should be + 0.17 ev.

The original guys that beat the game for a lot of money when these machines just came out were playing 4 deck machines. They waited until they saw 4 of the same card on the table so they knew they were all out (4 Qs, 4 2d, etc.). They then counted how many cards came out before one of these cards reappeared. They did this enough times to have an accurate estimate of the lag time. The casinos felt these machines were unbeatable and let them spread whatever they liked. When these guys won a ton the casino finally barred them so they just trained other people and sent them in to play the machines. The games now are nowhere near what they were in the beginning. A game being "beatable" and a game worth playing are two entirely different things.

The one-2-six has a buffer of about 20 cards. If you look at the patent you can see the exact number is discretionary.

The way Wong and other teams beat the first generation of shufflers won't work with small buffers. 16 cards of penetration isn't a lot, even if you can skip hands and spread.

There is a way to beat the newer devices, aside from external methods and ST, but I've not decided when or if to release the information.

Nobody wastes time on or cares about miniscule edges anymore when you can hole card for 1000 - 5000% bigger edges.

OK, go and play your 5000% edge game. All other forms of AP are dead because hole-carding was discovered 70 years ago....

Btw I didn't say the edge from the csm strategy was miniscule.

http://discountgambling.net/2012/07/...k-ev/#comments

Stephen How's blog. Nice guy and his entire blog is worth a read.

That strategy is the same as the one Wong and others used back in the nineties. Essentially you keep a "rolling" count and play effectively at the deepest point of penetration of the cards in the buffer.

With a one2six that's 16-25 cards. Lucrative it isn't.

If you think about it there are other angles here.

I collected about 200 hours of data from two 1-2-6 machines used in a California craps game. I can tell you the effective latency is far more than 16 cards.

That might be the case for an individual device in an individual game. If you look at the patent it explains that the buffer can be set to hold a larger number of cards than the stated minimum.

That said, in most blackjack games the buffer seems to be set to hold close to the stated minimum. This is from my own data and anecdotal accounts from various other people.

Eventually you will run into a situation where you have a full table and a boatload of small cards, or hands that basic strategy calls for splitting and then the shuffle machine will run out of cards shuffled and ready to be dealt, introducing a delay. Imagine something like 5, 6, 7, 8, 77, 88, 99, and (to a lesser extent, especially if aces can't be resplit) AA against a 5 or 6.

GBV,

I'm in a country with rules that give OFF THE TOP player's advantage of 0,11% but with one2six.
depend of the dealer, I can find game with 1,5-2 deck of discard before the dealer put back in the machin.
It's definetely PLAYABLE for me, but I don't know exactly how to proceed (when to reset exactly my RC etc ...) ?
How to do, also, if the dealer put back after each round ?
I heard that's new one2six has a buffer of 9 cards and no more 16 card ...

Thanks you for you help

What's one2six? Your off the top advantage depends on the number of decks. +0.11% is only possible with single deck unless you have some unusual rules. That's what you would get if you can double after splitting. If in addition you could double after any number of cards AND late surrender, you could theoretically have that advantage with double deck. But 6 decks will reduce the advantage by more 0.5% from single deck.

Nothing like people with opportunities and no clue. Why sure, let us do your work for you so you can go and get the money!

One2six's are a type of continuous shuffle machine (CSM) that's made by Shufflemaster. All of the CSM's I've ever seen were one2six's.

It's probably an early surrender game.

Pleaseteach me how to beat CSM ! PM me ?

Sure, just sit in front of your PM box and wait, we'll send everything to you soon. Don't worry about making any effort yourself, people will fall over themselves to give the bank away to anyone who just asks.

If ever there was a rigged system then it must be the CSMs. In todays technological world its obvious that these games are rigged and anyone imagining they can beat the machines are sorely mistaken.

I have watched and played these machines in casinos and if you attempt playing by "casino rules" draw to 16 and stand on 17 you will bust 90% of your hands while the casino will get 21 (not 20/19/18) 90% of the times. Just there you should see red flags going up.

I believe the casinos can set the rate of payouts (hands) according to their liking and you will find on "busy" times the raqte of winning hands will be set up so it looks like the punters are winners and when the peak times subside then its set at a much lower rate of winning hands and so much so that they can take 99% of the hands by manipulatiung(setting the machine accordingly.

These machines are not just plugged in at a power source but also has computer (USB type) cables plugged in to a main frame. There can only be one reason for this and that is for manipulation/rigging.

I sat out after a "bad" run the other night sipping coffee and counting hands. The players were solid and did everything by the book yet in 100 hands the casino won 87 of these. Those who want to say "sample size" etc etc go jump in a lake, show me 1 consistant BJ winner and I'll show you one consistant liar.

I have on many occasions requested at BJ to be given the waste cards when done or even just 1 card from the deck for inspection but they refuse always with no explanation. Its not like you are allowed to handle the cards in any case so cheating that way is impossible!!!

I would bet money on the cards containing micro chips and that the CSMs can slot the cards in where they want them as neither the machines nor the cards are inspectable at any point ever. If it was above board these machines would be see through and cards were inspectable and why the hell are the machines connected to computers somewhere???

incisive analysis

How does the machine factor in the blackjack fish that sits down and places his bets on 3 spots in the last second before the deal? And since the blackjack fish is drunk, can't figure out basic strategy. So on his first spot, he'll stay on hard 12 vs dealers 9. On his second spot, he splits his 20 then doubles down on his first split hand which is 17, stays on his 2nd split hand which is 15, and stays on his 3rd spot, which is a hard 5.

Now, you're sitting on 3rd base and get 11. Do you really think the machine planned the future this far in advance to give you a 3 when you double down? Or is it just using supercomputers and doing this all on the fly?

Serious question.

O ABSOLUTELY, seriously you will sit at the table dealer has 6 with all positions holding 14/15/17/12/16/16/15, and for all intents and purposes everyone should stand? Cards programmed to come will probably look something like T-5-Q-4-7-3-5 etc, no matter if anyone draws a card they die and even if 3 draw the dealer still makes a number somewhere near 20/21 and the casino wont mind paying 1 hand and taking 6! Great odds if you the casino.

But I think you missing the point here, there is no reason for the machine to have any other cabling linked to it other than a power source and in "archaic hand shuffles" you could see the cards being shuffled, why now with the CSM its hidden. If they had nothing to hide they could still cut the card into pieces and allow the punter to take the pieces for inspection.

Somehow I cant find any reason to continue playing card games if they not hand shuffled, as I am a believer of where money is involved cheating/thieving etc will follow. And in the tech world we live in micro chips, computer linked machines etc just doesnt bode well in a vote of confidence for me.

On the saturday with a full casino and lots of punters the feeling was that there were punters hitting hands but ultimately I still got the feeling that they were still all losing by the amount of cash going in vs the chips going out.

On the sunday with 2/3 players per table the situation was significantly different with cash going in but no sighn of significant chips going out.

On the 1 table that offerred a hand dealt shoe the table was packed all the time and I would say 80% satisfied customers even with losing hands

I am always looking for cheating/conspiracy theories and CSMs will fall squarely in that box. Make it look honest with just a power cable from the machine and a see through box where one can see the shuffle and perhaps I will consider playing the machines, otherwise you wont find me near them, just too many questions here with no answers.

I guess its poker for me vs real people and no machines