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08-19-2014 , 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicetrades200303
True story, folks. All we could say was, “Holy crap, wow”!

Player: “I want to bank.”
Banker corp employee: “You need twenty thousand.”
Dealer: “You need twenty thousand to bank.”
Player: “Why do you need twenty thousand? How did you get twenty thousand? Is that in the rulebook somewhere?
Dealer: “You need to cover all bets and bonus bets.” (Player had $2200 in front; total bets on felt was $400; plus $5 bet on bonus; bonus had max potential payout of 200:1.)
Player: “Floor, floorman!”
Floorman: “Yes?”
Player: “Why do I need twenty thousand to bank?”
Floorman: “You need to cover the bets on the table and the bonus bet.” (Floorman scanned the table and eyed the player’s chip stack.)
Floorman: “He covers.”
Player: “So why did they say I needed twenty thousand?”
Floorman: “Well, we always assume the $50 bonus bet.” (There was only a $5 dollar bonus bet, not $50. Even if it was $50, the max payout would have been $10,000--not $20,000.)

Drumroll…drumroll…

Boom! Out of nowhere, $50 landed on the bonus bet just like that.

Floorman: “Now, you can’t cover. Yeah, you see, now you need ten thousand to cover the bonus bet.”
Player: “Okay, I just bet.”

So I had a conversation with my buddies over dinner about this incident.
Friend: “Do you know what a dark prop is?”
Me: “No.”
Friend: “A dark prop is a guy who works for the corporation but doesn’t wear a badge, who goes around and makes sure nobody banks and takes away their action.
Me: “Really, no shyt? That’s against the law!”
Friend: “Nodding, you think the casino gives a shyt?”

FYI…I copied the below directly from the State of CA Department of Justice, Office of the Attorney General, Bureau of Gambling Control, specifically in the rulebook of this casino.

The Player-Dealer position must rotate in a continuous and systematic fashion, and cannot be occupied by one person for more than two consecutive hands. There must be an intervening player-dealer so that no single player can continually occupy the player-dealer position within the meaning of Oliver v. County of Los Angeles (1998) 66 Cal. App. 4th 1397, 1408-1409. If there is not an intervening person occupying the Player/Dealer's position, the game will be "broke" or stopped, as required by the California Penal Code. [California Penal Code Section 330]

Clearly, what the corporation did was illegal. And the casino should be punished for conniving at the illegal act by the corporation. Nowhere in the rulebook says anything about needing $20K to bank. Both the corporation and the casino intentionally mislead/lie to players that they need $20K to bank, effectively denying them an equal opportunity to bank and thereby create an illegal house-banked game. I saw the corporation banked more than an hour straight without offering players a chance to bank.

Please post any comments or suggestions. Thank you.
I had almost the exact same situation occur, but nobody threw down the extra bet. I had about $19k on me and finally the floorman agreed that I could bank even with < $20k since I fully cover. This was after a lot of back and forth.

Then he decided the bank had to be in chips, I can't have any cash at all. Which meant I had to fill out a CTR, so I gave up.
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08-27-2014 , 10:42 PM
Strange yet true. If you win a jackpot at a table game - say $10 or 20k you don't have to fill out a tax form since you won the bet another player a la poker. It was not paid out by a cardroom. Not filling out forms for cashing out over $5000 is another issue.

Cardrooms wouldn't bother to hire dark props to prevent players from banking. There are enough bums hanging around trying to get lucky that will gladly do it for free.

Cardrooms will face a lot of heat from the gaming commission if they don't offer the player bank to other players and someone complains to the commission.

Cardrooms and corporations are usually related in someway anyway and not completely independent. Cardroom a is affilliated with Corp at cardroom a . Or cardroom b owns Corp at cardroom c and vice versa.

The amount won by the Corp at most table games probably won't compare to amount of commission the house drops.

Most people thinking of striking it rich player banking are neglect to tip the dealers. Not tipping on the cardroom industry makes you person non grata. $5 tips per down won't cut it either. $5 at the table game side is equivilent to $1 at the poker side.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
08-29-2014 , 12:00 PM
If you admit the cardrooms and the corporations are making an end run around the legal restrictions, then why would you expect us to believe they won't attempt to protect their interests in banking?
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08-29-2014 , 12:50 PM
The corporation can dissuade player banking by just not going behind a player bank. It's just more efficient. As a player, do you want to worry about a player bank not covering your bonus bets which pays out 40:1 or 200+:1? What about in blackjack where you hit a natural 21, but because the player bank ran out of money you don't get paid?

Corporations can certainly go behind a players bank. In small games, however, that creates more head ache. Cum-cuming, splitting banks, multiple banks.

The trend towards games with bonuses certainly favors corporation banking.

On the flip side, other games a predominantly player banked. IE, Doublehand and Paigow Tiles. Would a corporation benefit from always banking? Absolutely. Would a cardroom want that to happen? Probably not. Players tip dealers at a far greater clip.

NiceTrade's issue isn't a big deal. There was another thread where a player was barred from Matrix for banking blackjack as a corporation because he went in with his friends? Yeah that's shadier.
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08-30-2014 , 03:45 AM
Bay 101 told me I need 100k to bank 3 card poker. Obviously nobody has that kind of cash so the corporation becomes the de-facto bank.

At M8trix What is not clear to me is do you have to play, or just be seated at the table to bank? They told me I must play at least 2 hands before I can bank but I'm not sure if that's a lie or not. The corporation never play any hand. This whole scenario is so Wild West, shady, and definitely has organized crime involved. There is NO way the corporations aren't kicking back money to the casino.

For those who did contact gaming control board or AG what was the response?
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
09-12-2014 , 05:06 PM
In california players can bank games in non indian casinos
My poker bankroll is about 35k and I am thinking about banking california games as well with the same roll.

If you just bank Pai Gow poker and blackjack as a player every 2 hands.
How profitable can it be and what should your bankroll be?
I feel like it would be a slow win rate unless you get players betting big all the time.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
09-12-2014 , 08:19 PM
For blackjack, the house edge is like 0.7% (0.007 units) and the variance is 1.2 units. This gives a longest losing stretch of 250k hands and a bankroll of 500 units.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
09-12-2014 , 09:17 PM
How do these player banked games worked:

- who handles security / game integrity?
- how does the casino make money?

... etc
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
09-13-2014 , 10:45 AM
The house takes a collection fee for every 50$ is 50 cents
Also I am a poker dealer at that casino
I rarely see people win at the black jack table. Every time I deal blackjack I usually kill everyone.


It is a 6 deck shoe
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
09-14-2014 , 03:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
For blackjack, the house edge is like 0.7% (0.007 units) and the variance is 1.2 units. This gives a longest losing stretch of 250k hands and a bankroll of 500 units.
The thing is is that that isn't the real house edge. Nearly all players play suboptimally, many substantially so.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
09-14-2014 , 10:27 AM
Most banking is done by a banking corporation.

Then the House adds a bunch of side bets with huge potential payoffs, so that the other players can't bank.

Why the House would change the rules to favor the banking corporation, when they're not supposed to have an interest in the banking corporation winning, I leave as an exercise for the reader.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
04-19-2017 , 01:05 AM
I don't understand what this is about. Player banking means you take the place of the house and they stand to win nothing? Why would they provide you with the accomodations to play for free?
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
04-19-2017 , 11:00 PM
I've been told I *must* have $25k to bank certain games. I also question the requirement that I play 2 hands when the corporation isn't forced to play hands.

I've never been barred, and haven't banked in LA, but I wish you luck. I have been refused action as a player by the corporation, though.

I've also had the corporation tell the casino to change their procedures, and the casino complied. Didn't seem very fair, but I don't know if it is illegal.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
04-20-2017 , 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alwayscall
I don't understand what this is about. Player banking means you take the place of the house and they stand to win nothing? Why would they provide you with the accomodations to play for free?
California doesn't allow the "house" (meaning the casino) to have any interest in the outcome of any gambling game. That's why the drop in poker is based off if there's a flop, turn, river and not based on pot size at all. It'd be illegal to look at the pot size to determine how much to rake. They're just charging for a service. To get around this and have blackjack and other table games they take a collection of typically $1 every hand from everyone playing table games and the players take turns being the house and booking everyone's bets. This makes table games horrible in California because you're paying rake on top of it being a -EV game.

Additionally, there's a company known as the corporation that pays people to sit down and act as the player bank every hand, and the problem OP has with that is because the casinos are basically colluding with the corporation to stop people from ever taking the corporation's action. They likely have some sort of arrangement under the table.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
04-21-2017 , 11:24 PM
Here's a thought...

Why don't gamblers in California only play table games at tribal casinos and boycott table games at non-tribal casinos...

If enough gamblers do this then California has to change the laws to be exactly like tribal casinos regarding table games
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
04-24-2017 , 09:36 AM
Tribal casinos have their own problems, notably that they're run by tribal cartels with little oversight.

Also banking is a unique situation mathematically, and not something you can do at tribal casinos.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
04-24-2017 , 12:52 PM
Also tribal casinos are, for the most part, located far away from population centers. There are a few that are grandfathered in, and recent compacts signed have been more and more lax about this unofficial rule, but in general for most of the population to get to a tribal casino it's a day trip.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
06-02-2017 , 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbo
California doesn't allow the "house" (meaning the casino) to have any interest in the outcome of any gambling game. That's why the drop in poker is based off if there's a flop, turn, river and not based on pot size at all. It'd be illegal to look at the pot size to determine how much to rake. They're just charging for a service. To get around this and have blackjack and other table games they take a collection of typically $1 every hand from everyone playing table games and the players take turns being the house and booking everyone's bets. This makes table games horrible in California because you're paying rake on top of it being a -EV game.

Additionally, there's a company known as the corporation that pays people to sit down and act as the player bank every hand, and the problem OP has with that is because the casinos are basically colluding with the corporation to stop people from ever taking the corporation's action. They likely have some sort of arrangement under the table.
Thanks a lot for the very in-deph explanation.

It took me this long to revisit the thread and find your reply, sorry for that.

So in this case there's a dumb law that creates a situation where the casinos are killing the players, because they have to play "jumping the legal hoops" to be able to charge a reasonable amount for their games. I can't say I blame the casinos for doing this. As long as the law allows them to do it, they will of course do that. I can see how, from a players' perspective, it looks like they're being cheated, and in a way they are because the games are much worse because of this, but that's because of the dumb laws. It's not really the casinos' fault.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
06-02-2017 , 09:19 AM
That's simply not true alwayscall. They could easily charge a "reasonable" amount by raising the commissions. But instead they're choosing to break the law and collude. They're cheating.

What they're doing is like a poker house hiring a shill instead of raising the rake.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
10-29-2018 , 04:27 PM
Heard thru the grapevine the current corporation at Bicycle is getting out. Not sure if true but may be an indicator of something else going on there.
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10-30-2018 , 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commerceplayerbank
...Obviously if a player bets a $500 and wins and the player banker can't pay them, the player is upset, but the player banker still has this right to "bank" that hand.
I was making very good money before I was banned. The casino and third party corporation don't want any competition. However, if enough of us come together in this lawsuit, we will be able to take legal action and change these habits of banning players for "trying" to bank California Table Games.
This does not make sense...

I bet $500. If I win the hand then I only win $5 instead of $500??????
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
11-05-2018 , 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jion_Wansu
This does not make sense...

I bet $500. If I win the hand then I only win $5 instead of $500??????
No, you win the full $500. The Corporation will cover whatever action the player-banker doesn't. It's the main service of the Corporation, to make sure all action is covered.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
11-13-2018 , 04:25 PM
It really depends on the corporation and whether they go behind or not (cover the remaining action). In the case the corporation doesn't go behind the action not covered by the bank is returned win or lose.

Games with bonus bets implicitly favor having the corporation bank.. Imagine you're playing black jack with a bust bonus. You're putting $10 or $25 on the bust but the player bank only has enough to cover the base bets and 1x the bonus bets. I don't know the math on that someone's not going to be happy if the bank doesn't cover.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
12-12-2018 , 05:45 PM
Hustler corporation @ Gardena out as of Monday. Don't know who new corp is.
California Player Banked Games -- How do they work ?? Quote
10-20-2020 , 05:05 AM
This player/banking stuff sounds like a scam. Why do people play if they know that their winning hands won't get paid? In that case if their lose then they don't need to lose their bets either (if they can't win their full bets).
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