P.S. Arturius is legit. He helped me a lot with landing the job I got in trading, so if he offers to help anyone else definitely take him up on that

This is awesome post, even tho i do think that you didnt need rhis much info to prove this point

Just wanted to say great post Art, even though I don't necessarily agree with all your points, it definitely makes me think a lot about my current situation. I'm starting to try to find ways to slowly leave poker. I have a degree in finance, and initially wanted to get into trading but I think I want to get into real estate now and I'm currently looking for my first small commercial property.

Wow, amazing post. Thanks so much as this is something I really needed to read. I am in the college dropout to play professionally crowd (obv mistake) but just gonna have to bite the bullet and go back. Never thought I'd get to this level of burnout from the game this soon (3 1/2 years) but oh well live and learn.

It took me a long to realize the benefits of it, but this is my current situation and I love it.

I still make nearly all of my income from poker, and that flexibility allowed me the opportunity to take a job I really love without concern for the pay. For the time being I'm working 5-10 hours a week doing something I love, which has the added benefits of closing the resume gap and putting me in a position to network for further opportunities in the field.

I might still be earning the bulk of my income at the poker table in five years time, but if not I'm in a much better position to make the transition than I was a year or two ago.

what exactly do you do for 5-10 hours a week?

The problem with what most people are pointing out, is that they are delusional. Successful poker grinders making even >$50k/year are rare, yet we have people here talking like $100-$250k/year is a walk in the park. Although a majority of the few that can do it find their way here. Lots of people think they can make more, but most do not, and lots of people want to let on here that they are much more successful at poker than they actually are, and some might believe it, but most are just kidding themselves.

Re: The resume gap. It really shouldn't be a big deal if you played poker for a couple years and I would put it on my resume for just about any job I was applying for. It's a lot better than sat at home watching TV in my parents house for sure IMO.

What is a big deal is trying to enter the job market at 30 with no professional work experience. People are very understanding of hiring the 25/26 year old who took a couple years off to figure things out after college, but no one wants to hire the 30 year old who grinded poker for 40k a year for 8 years, and is just now realizing he would like to enter the job market and start a real career.

I'm a cameraman for an NBA team. I get paid a modest wage to sit underneath the basket and watch basketball. I love it.

Beat: The Washington Wizards hardly counts as basketball.

sounds pretty sick

There's a lot of data there, but I think it misses the point. The salaries listed for most of the positions you mentioned seem extremely low. I don't think any of us are looking for careers where we'll average 60k/year on 7 years experience. That's true for pretty much any job that requires some amount of skill. Why study to become an IT pro or financial advisor when you can just work at the post office and make the same amount or more with better benefits? Any job you get is going to lead to a lower middle class income in 5-7 years if you stick with it.

I agree with the idea that poker players should consider getting jobs, and it would be good for a lot of us. The problem is finding opportunities for work that 1) have strong advancement possibilities and 2) would not financially destroy our current lifestyle. For those of us who make a bit more than your assumptions, say in the 100k range, taking a job which starts us at 40k-50k/year is a huge hit. The only way a job will generate the inertia for this lifestyle change is if it leads to a stable future with strong income potential. Showing us the 90th percentile for salary 7 years out is what we make now doesn't do this.

The resume gap is only an issue in one regard, getting interviews. The idea of poker as a profession will be polarizing to hirers. It's a positive in an interview though, because it gives you something interesting to talk about and makes you stand out from other prospective employees. In reality, employers tend to hire who they like the most from a qualified array of candidates, not who is purely the most skilled. It's typically a winner-take-all situation where it doesn't matter if you finish 3/20 or 20/20. If poker disqualifes you from 5/10 jobs, it can still be a strong positive.

Getting interviews is another issue altogether. From what I've seen, it's virtually impossible to get an interview anywhere decent (that would lead to more than the mediocre outcomes in the OP) by sending a resume out cold (assuming you have little to no experience in the field). Strong entry-level jobs are obtained in three ways, through the recruiting cycle at a top school, through internships (typically obtained through your school), or through a personal contact at the company. For a poker player who's out of college, it's very hard to get the ear of a good employer.

I'm curious what advice you guys (specifically the banking headhunter) would have for my situation. I have a BS in Comp Sci from a top 50 school (GPA not helpful). While playing poker I completed a non-degree (but high level) graduate program in quantitative finance, specifically the mathematics of derivatives. I've passed an actuary exam, and could pass #'s 2 and 3 in the next cycle if needbe. I'd be willing to pick up an additional BS in mathematics if it would correct the GPA issue, but I feel like it really wouldnt be an asset unless it was from top 20 school, which isn't a realisitic option. Graduate school is also not an option. Yale isn't going to accept me, and it would be silly to go into huge debt to attend a second-tier financial mathematics program where the graduates average 60k/year. So my question is: Is there any way someone like me gets any interview for any kind of trading/market maker/actuarial job that has real advancement potential (that is, not a shady prop firm or a goverment actuary job). I'm confident if I can get interviews, I can get a job, but I have no idea how to get past the first levels of screening.

Just some thoughts here, I dont want to make this sound like Im burning youre really well written and interesting post here tho . Looking forward to next parts. But what makes you think someone who cannot get above 3bb/100 at 2/4 will have a really great carreer? Especially at trading. I mean either hes not smart enough or doesnt work hard enough on his game, or he has tilt issues. If he has either one, why would he succeed in the real world in any trading related area that involves short term losses and profit? Sure he might make median salary, and over time slightly more, but the ev difference probably wont be that big if he enjoys playing poker right. If that person already makes like 6-7bb/100 at 2/4 and/or higher it is already pretty obvious that he should keep playing unless poker bores him. And having a winrate that high at 2/4 or above isnt that uncommon. Just some thoughts here, I dont want to make this sound like Im burning youre really well written and interesting post here tho .

Also Im sorry if you already said it, but what kind of trader are you? You work at a prop firm?

Can't believe I'm agreeing with shoe, but this is exactly right. I think the reality of poker earnings is becoming clear for many, many more people at this time.

I look forward to reading the trading thread, and seeing if I can add anything useful as someone who earned a (decent) living for 3 years playing poker and has traded successfully for 5 years.

Agree too...poker isn't bad, but it's much worse to say you're making "X bucks/yr now" when in the future everything could change and you make way less. If anything, field sizes will always get bigger, along with more and more on tournament buy ins in your schedule (due to METs and more live mtts), which means you have to play just that much more. This doesn't even account for just having an awful year no matter how good you are. If you're only playing poker and making 100-250k/yr, you should def be learning something else to jump into once poker starts to slow down for you, money wise/family starts so your volume decreases/etc.

Also apology7, you're in a spot like my old roommate/friend..you make more than most people playing poker at the stakes you play and on your own dime. He makes money, but uncertain future and not really a ton of money to invest...just kinda one of those inbetween spots where he doesn't know if he wants to go back to school or pursue trading. Just don't go without a backup plan instead of starting in the blue if poker goes ca-put suddenly.

Excellent. This probably sounds dumb to most, but after trading I want to get into NBA front office type work.

Schwallie, do you work as a trader in OH? I'm just curious, as I'm from a suburb of Cleveland.

Notwithstanding the outstanding post by ArtX...

The sort of person that would grind poker for years...
Is a 3 sigma non-conformist...
NEEDING an unstructured and independent lifestyle...
Much like the lifestyle of an artistic person.

Many of the jobs listed (tax, analyst, etc)...
Are tailor made for 3 sigma CONFORMISTS...
People who can only function highly structured.

It gets worse...
Because extreme conformists and extreme non-conformists...
Never become friends...
They view the other as a creepy freak...
Typically a poker player type...
Is gonna be fish out of water in some corporation.

Save your money grinding and start your own business...
It's the only way you will be happy...
Play poker for 30 hours...
Work on a business start-up for 30 hours.

I quit my last job as a Software Engineer in Jan 1990...
And I have NEVER looked back...
I'd shoot myself...
Before ever applying for a ****ing job job...
Even though I would be making >> 100K + benefits.

I was once offered a job as Hedge Fund Manager...
By the owner of Acuity Funds...
Which was just sold for $300 million...
And I turned it down...
Just can't imagine working for anyone.

http://www.investmentexecutive.com/c...on=149&cat=149

I wonder what the correlation is between people who think poker is quickly dying and not very profitable and people who aren't really that good at it to begin with.

I agree a ton of people are finding out they aren't as good as they thought they were and should probably listen to Art, but the problem is they are the people less likely to succeed in the real world too. There is still a good amount of players making a ton in these games and though they'd be the most likely to do well in real jobs, they are doing plenty fine now and if they are smart and saving most of their earnings, they'll be looking at early retirement instead of grinding it out at a job.

Great post. As for interviews, I have to say you need to make connections and get interviews through friends/ppl you know.

The biggest problem with playing poker full time, is the lack of social interaction with the rest of the world. A lot of good poker players are smart people, who make the mistake of thinking that they can get through their lives without 'needing' anyone. Sure they will make connections through poker, but their connections aren't diverse enough. Not to mention that poker still has a negative vibe to it which makes it even harder to 'fit in'

Also as Glen pointed out, your figures are definitely off. You need to realize that there are two major spectrum's of earners. Those who progress really quickly, making 10-30% more every year in pretty hardcore jobs, and those whose salary's barely increase by 5% a year (these are the guys content with coming in at 9 and leaving at 5 regardless). I would assume most of the poker players on here are the ambitious kind who want to pursue those fast growing roles aggressively.

This.

/

Why can't people get a job and still grind poker in their spare time? Poker is just a hobby, just a harmless bit of fun.

Nah going to work in Chicago. Just going to change my location because everyone keeps asking that lol

Yes, an expensive/losing hobby for most. There is nothing wrong with Poker as long as you have a job to support your habit (speaking for most people, including the average poster here).

A very generous estimate is that 10% of poker players are winners, and we aren't even talking winning enough to support a decent living here.

I understand a lot of internet players feel strong and proud because their penis is 3tpbb long, but it’s actually fairly meaningless. Firstly, the 10,000th best banker is laughing at the salary of the 100th best online pro. One needs to be much more exceptional to make money in poker than in other fields. Anyone who consistently makes any money in poker has extraordinary skills in certain areas. How those translate to success at a job has almost purely to do with the social skills and mental dysfunctions (or lack thereof) of the player, and little to do with whether the player is a small winner or large winner.

There are a lot of people who weren’t that good to begin with and rode the wave of the poker boom. The people still remaining and making decent money, though, are playing at a very high level. How many players are making 100k/year at this point? How many are making 200k? Very, very few. A quick PTR of pokerstars NL players “all time” leaders shows 37 players up 500k since the site started in late 2008. Obviously with rakeback, people playing different games and on different sites, the numbers are a bit higher, but the point is if you’ve making even 200k/year, you’re in the very top group of players in the world. And it’s only getting harder. I’m 31, and almost everyone I graduated from my 30something ranked school with makes 100k+. They also have jobs that will keep paying them more and more money year after year, and don’t have the stress and uncertain future of a poker player.

The condescension about people not being able to succeed in the real world because they are merely moderate winners at poker is ridiculous. There are tons of people who couldn’t win a cent at poker spending more money to repaint their boat than we make in a year. Poker is a lifestyle choice with a lot of pros and cons, but the idea that poker is the best long-term purely financial choice for anyone (except the top few hundred players with sponsorships and such) without some mental or social defect that hinders their interaction with mainstream society is naïve.

Glenn, I really like what you have to say ITT and you are onto a lot of intelligent insights. Especially the one about many people in the "real world" couldn't play poker at all. Totally true. In fact, many of them aren't even that competitive, they are just disciplined.

I'm also 31, undergrad business from top 50 school, MBA from a shade above average program, with 7 years experience at a defense contractor. I am having a very difficult time finding work, everything is still way above or way below, not many jobs for someone without a real skillset.

And I suck at poker so that doesn't help, either. At least you have that CS undergrad, having a tech undergrad degree is highly important to just get past the requirements on so many job postings.