great post, but would also be interested to see it for someone who makes like 150-250k / yr or 250-400k

I'm a former IT pro now grinding SSNL, and I consider going back to IT every time I hit a downswing. Will reread your post and consider it some more.

Agree with this. Also for the 250k-400k range i think variance should be increased. And earnings should decrease and variance should increase in future years.

Great post though.

Would like to comment: the job scales are skewed for the equity analyst/securities analyst positions because you aren't including bonuses

I have to say that in my whole adult life, I was never as well rested, in shape, and overall happier than the 18 months or so when I was playing poker full time. If not for the UIGEA who knows what would have happened, but after that and the loss of Party Poker I wasn't able to stick with it much longer.

Wow this may be the single most useful thread on 2+2 today.

only read half, but good stuff arturius

Yep, in the next instalment with trading/finance, I go over bonuses in depth.

How many hours have you spent making this?

It all depends on tastes and preferences. The reason I play poker is because I don't function well in structured/institutional situations, basically anything where I don't make 100% of my own decisions. I can also devote my time to traveling the world and adding tons of new things to my arsenal like languages, knowledge, international connections, writing material (would like to become a writer full time eventually), in addition to truly enjoying my life to the fullest, which is something that non of my real job friends can honestly say that they do. Of course, some people are like that... not me though.

Just a minor point, but in my experience, most of the Microsoft certifications are not very well respected in the IT industry. The feeling that many of my friends and colleagues over the years in IT have had is that a person with no or relatively little computer know-how or experience can study for and obtain various Microsoft certifications, and still be utterly useless -- despite retaining some amount of often impractical or technical definition heavy book knowledge. Thus, they are not usually obtained by top quality people to prove their skills, but rather, but people who lack skills and/or experience and want to use the certification to get a foot in the door or to change careers.

Furthermore, while I'm sorry I can't locate it now, I have seen a report from Microsoft indicating that people with their certifications have lower average salaries than their non-certified contemporaries in a variety of IT positions.

Nevertheless, I won't deny that if you are not fresh out of college and are looking for a career change, a Microsoft certification may very well help you get your foot in the door somewhere.

Looks like a great post. Will read more / comment more later.

Thanks for this OP

Thanks a lot OP this is pure gold.

skimmed it quickly but obv for the people saying 'do it for 100-200 or 150-400' etc it is way trickier because obviously if you are winning 300+k a year consistently playing poker you are in a very small pool of people (extremely small) and everyone is going to vary a lot, some people making this much would be insane to stop since they are pretty normal guys and getting any job is not going to be worth it, and some people making this much (eg someone like GP) should be aggressively exploring other avenues since they are obviously outliers at their ability to make money in competitive careers and the amount they can conceivably make in non poker careers dwarfs the top poker players pretty easily (successful business is gonna net more than Ivey's poker play per year example).

As for anyone who is college educated and making 80k or less a year, obviously you shouldn't be playing poker for a living unless you have some really rewarding hobbies or just plan to never get a job. At 120k i guess it's pretty interesting if you are playing 30+ hours a week and don't enjoy playing that much though.

Yeah, I agree completely. Microsoft, particularly some of its low level stuff isn't worth anything. But, if you're trying to build from the ground up, the knowledge you acquire in the tests couldn't hurt. CCNA is by far the better qualification. Some of the higher level Microsoft stuff are ok for proving an aptitute in MS technology, but its not exactly going to land you a job. But for getting your toes wet, its not a bad place to start, the reason why its not highly regarded is because it can be completed by anyone who does a little bit of coursework study.

Yeah, the OP doesn't really place a value on time/quality of life.


A few things to consider:


50k hands/month is probably 15-25 hours/week, while a full time job is going to be 50+ once you factor in commuting and time spent getting ready for work.


Working full time means living where your job is, while you can play poker from anywhere. This could be someplace really cool or simply someplace really cheap.


If you have priorities that are not just financial (kids, art, travel, whatever), poker may give you the time to pursue those priorities that a full time job wouldn't.

Everyone is aware and obviously thought about deeply the lifestyle/quality of life factor, hence why they decided to play. But looking 10 years down the track, is this sustainable? If you had goals of where you want to be, what kind of positions, what future are you sacrificing for the lifestyle you have now? How much is the lifestyle worth?

I can't place a value on this. I just remind you not to look at the full picture + some figures. We could argue till the cows come home about whether 10 years of poker is a better option because of enjoyment. My only input is to say, rarely to people stay in the same career/industry for 10 years these days, even in other careers, people get ants in their pants. Unfortunately when that happens with poker, you can become very stuck in the situation, so you should consider that right now.

Great posts, Art.

I only read the first post, will there be thoughts on the future of online poker (perhaps shaky) relative to the future of employment?

it never ceases to surprise me how many people of average intelligence thought they had a long term edge at poker. who came up with that lifetime to master stuff anyway - what a moron.

its amazing how people get swept up in bull markets.

Nice post, looking forward to more.

Would passing the CCNA test combined with an undergrad business degree be enough to obtain entry level IT jobs for someone with no IT background?

Also would love to see the graphs for poker income of 100k-200k, don't need research to tell someone that playing poker with an expected annual income of 50-100k is less than ev than a traditional job with upside for wealth accumulation.

I'd like to add: assuming someone who can rise to the top of the poker world, or even remotely close would also rise to the top of the business world, there is WAY more money in finance than in poker, especially long term.

I'm interested to see what you post in the bonus section, since almost across the board on Wall St. our salaries are made up of 50% bonus. It's not uncommon to see people receive 100%+ of their salary in bonus.

Short background on me: I got a degree in mechanical engineering and worked for a contractor in LA for 2 years after graduation while splitting my time grinding live. I made more grinding LA cash than my salary and strongly considered going pro.

Fortunately I read strassa's thread from a few years ago, and a couple others in the Finance forum, and caught the trading bug. Opened an optionsExpress account and taught myself how to trade (as much as I could) while applying for trading jobs and eventually binked a job with the one of the largest banks on Wall Street working in Municipal Bonds. I had literally 0 experience in finance and didn't even know what a bond was until two days before my job interviews. I can't stress enough how far a positive attitude and well thought out plan for presenting yourself can take you. I hope some people with read Arturius's advice and work hard to do something with it if they so choose. Nothing's impossible imo.

Nice post.

Just like to add that there are a lot of more basic business jobs that many poker players could do, or at least start with to try and build experience for bigger opportunities. Things like being a bank teller, leading on to maybe a roll as a bank manager, mortgage broker, insurance broker. There are likely many opportunities in retail too such as a merchandise manager, inventory controller and so on.

Also you can pick up temp work and contract work, to try and get experience on your CV. So that gaps are not so visible and you can pick up a few references along the way.

I recently got a some contract work after a couple years, playing around with poker. I padded my CV with working for my own 'business' as I had renovated a few houses with my parents, I became the 'project manager' I simply listed all the skills that I required to complete the task. I have also traded a bit in online retail, so I simply listed all the skills that I had acquired there to. The interviewer didn't even question the 'gaps' as there was none.

Just because you haven't worked a 'real job' doesn't mean you don't have skills. You have to be able to explain these key skills and how they relate to the job your going for.

Thanks for the article, most poker players eventually figure out that poker is just not going to cut it for themselves. But usually this process takes a couple years. I know I would have stopped playing poker for better opportunities sooner if an article such as this had been there to read so thanks for posting.

Holy **** very impressive post op

I just quit poker permanently last month - and it feels sooo good to just be one year out of college and not 3, or 5, or 10.

All I have to say is good luck to everyone still making a living from this crazy game.

And if you aren't killing it, start looking into secondary income streams now!

Interesting thread.

This is something I'm definitely going to do:

I've been playing poker full time for 5 years, and I pretty much hate it now. I have to force my self to play and getting 40k hands a month is a real chore for me. I have a degree in mechanical engineering from 10 years ago. But, I never really used it. I was a graduate student for a couple years after getting my degree, and worked a couple contracts before I started poker full time.

I'm looking to get an entry level job of some sort. I was thinking something along the lines of bank teller -> whatever like a previous poster mentioned. But, it's really disheartening to try and put together a good quality resume with my lack of 'accomplishments'.

omg devinlake!!! sngs r dying

rather, u switched early anyways.