Dude, you are on page one doomsaying when prices were closing at 119.68 that day. Maybe, you should just shut the **** up?

How does that make thus debt any less trash?

Spurious,

Are you even understanding what he is saying? He thinks it is crazy to buy a junk bond with a 5.25% interest rate. I agree with him.

If you were a cult of musk believer, why would you buy these bonds in lieu of equity? It seems pretty crazy!

ETA: http://markets.businessinsider.com/n...7-8-1002237999

This article points out the standard rate and a few factors that should increase the rate.

Yeah, exactly. Maybe TSLA stock is overvalued, maybe it's undervalued or correctly valued. It all depends on the upside. There is way less upside in buying a 5.25% junk bond.

Mikhel,
Explain to me why a convertible junk bond is a terrible investment compared to the equity? To me it seems a better investment than the stock.

You realize this is a convertible bond, right? It's basically a bond with a free 5 year call option. Seems miles ahead of buying Tesla stock to me. Paid for with your money, dear stockholder.

The difference isn't monumental. I would buy straight equity but there are people out there who have mandates to buy junk bonds and for them I think it's a good investment.

There reality is, Tesla will never go bankrupt, they'll either be sold or succeed. If they are being sold, the company acquiring it will most likely be either a traditional car maker or someone trying to enter the business. In either case, demand will be there and I doubt that existing debt holders will lose their investment. So the downside risk is pretty limited.

From an upside point of view, the bond has upside potential if Tesla gets upgraded in the process from junk to investment grade. Sure, it's maybe 10-15% upside but there is still upside. You do have the pecking order.

AFAIK it's not convertible:
http://fortune.com/2017/08/10/elon-m...ck-junk-bonds/

1) I'm not a stockholder
2) where do you see this is a convertible bond?

OK, this makes no sense at all then. I read they were convertible; I must have gotten a bad news source. From the link:
It makes sense if you believe "Tesla is very unlikely to go bankrupt, but is also greatly overvalued". Then it's a nice yield. Still. With convertible bonds floating out there paying 2.3%, same expiry year, you'd think you'd take a little upside.

If risk is limited, why do the bonds have a junk rating?

Not convertible from what I read

I am shocked at TS being wrong while attempting to talk down to me!

I actually agree with all of this even though I am bearish on TSLA long-term. Can't imagine TSLA folding in 5 years given all of the hype and momentum. I can see this happening with all of Musk's other projects, but TSLA seems to have enough staying power with consumer appeal, positive investor sentiment, state government support, and possibly even the most important, federal government support. TSLA is a symbol of American innovation, and we don't want to lose this battle to foreign auto-makers. Because American hegemony, dominance, and ego is at stake here, Musk is getting dumb money thrown at him left and right.

Well put. TS is not a investor he is a day trader - that ironically has talked way more about how he is going to show us his awesome trades in real time but hasn't really done so (lol). His long term investing thesis is already way off on Tesla, claiming it entered terminal decline in 2015, ect.

Hey TS in 2018 what will Tesla's market share of the EV market be based on revenue? and what EV revenue multiple will they be at compared to their next closest competitor. My estimate is in 2018 they will >4x the EV revenue of their next closest competitor.

They say Tesla is a cult stock, but the real cult around Tesla is the cult of bears that have been screaming about impending doom and the sky is falling for years and several 100 points on the stock and they just keep moving there little doomsayer goalpost around year after year. Meanwhile Tesla continues to gain momentum and be one of the fastest growing (CAGR) companies post-IPO in the history of business.

His other main venture is Spacex, you think Spacex will "fold" in the next five years?

Also your point on Tesla having government support, this is true of all major manufacturing companies around the world. But as i said some time ago on here, we already saw this play out before the model S launched back when Tesla was a much much less accomplished company and Google stepped in to acquire Tesla in deal valued at over $10 billion and still keep Musk in charge. . This was back when Tesla's annual revenue was something like 100 million not the 10+ billion it will have in 2017 with 20+ billion worth of pre-order product deposits waiting. Bears that think Tesla is going to zero have been laughably stupid for a long time.

The bears are much more rational and level-headed (on average). I think investors should put on their historian glasses when assessing TSLA. Musk's got all of the characteristics of a con artist CEO. He's a bullsh*tter. Pure and simple. Charlatans don't think long term and they are never thorough or careful. Everything is about doing what it takes to make the quick buck. The evidence is in the balance sheets, but there's always something new "just around the corner" always in the "near future". Always pumping the next big thing, distracting you from analyzing the fine details cus your too busy looking at the next flashy headline and thinking about "what could be" instead of "what is".

Oldest trick in da book bruh. Just look up Barnum and Bailey and the Ringley Brother's. Learn the circus sideshow trade secrets and you can understand the Forbes 400 a lot better.

This is just laughably silly at this point - Elon has two of the fastest growing manufacturing companies in the world and one is a freaking rocket company that he started from scratch. Bezos btw started a rocket company blueorigin at roughly the same time and you can see how much more Elon has accomplished without having relative unlimited billions in liquidity like Bezos, for example. But the anti-tesla anti-Elon bear cult can't back down and admit they have been wrong for years and will continue to be wrong year after year, you couldn't even answer the question I asked about Spacex. Elon having salesman skills is a plus, he generates 100's of millions in free advertising for Tesla. Jack Dorsey said he thought Elon had the most effective twitter account in business, that's an asset he developed.

Lol that's like saying the richest kid from school is the most popular kid because his parents let him throw unsupervised parties at his mansion every weekend.

Musk gets money thrown at him left and right, does dog sh*t with it, and then we're supposed to sit here and admire how skilled he is as a CEO, when he hasn't shown a whiff of profitability, just cool ideas. The only whiff I smell from Musk, is a heaping pile of sh*t.

The reason why this is relevant to trading/investing is that eventually it hurts morale at the company. Good workers sense that their CEO is a maniacal basTURD, spending more time posing for magazine covers then he is ensuring his company makes a profit.

These good workers get hushed, shunned, and ultimately replaced by other cultists who are willing to sell out their morals to be part of the "winning team" or to be one of the "cool kids" that gets invited to the mansion party. People who party all the time and are self-centered always lose out to the hard-working, responsible individuals. It's why America keeps getting its ass handed to them, and it's why TSLA will too.

Musk has a ROCKET COMPANY guys!!! Can't you see how cool he is? That means he can make cars. C'mon guys - if he can make rockets, how hard are cars?? Guys is a genius.

Also, this is why Raytheon moved into the car business and are now competing with Toyota, using a much smarter method of vertical integration.

lol, Cuban. Just lol.

Musk is brilliant at PR. He's a middling to good CEO. He's a master at getting government money. He's absolutely **** at competing successfully in competitive industries, he lacks large scale non linear thinking, that a true genius like Bezos has. He's a good hirer of talent.

None of this has much to do with his ability to run a car business. Building cars profitably is way way harder than building rockets. Not even the same ballpark.

Having people give you unlimited capital is probably the single strongest thing he brings to the table.

Why do you keep refusing to even answer your dumb claim about Spacex not being around in 5 years? Instead you keep falling back on this permabear anti-elon religious diatribe.

The facts are simple, Elon started and led his team to the premier rocket company in the world today.


And he led Tesla through
IPO year 2010 revenue: $116 Million
2016 revenue: $7 Billion
CAGR since IPO: 98%

Is there even a faster growing manufacturing company in modern history at that scale?

As much as the bears like to pretend that this is because Elon is so charming that he gets this much credit from big money interests, it isn't so. Charming is a small part of it, the other part is his history of success for investors, that other really really smart and successful people like Peter Theil and Larry Page and many many others admire and vouch for him and when you pull off something as hard as Spacex that kinds of gives you a lot of credibility, maybe not the anti-elon cult, but to many smart rich people it does.

I said it's more likely to fail in 5 years than TSLA is. That's not a dumb claim. If we see a major war or have a large market downturn there isn't going to be a market for any pie-in-the-sky space travel. Sorry bucko. Come back down to earth.

Doesn't appear to be convertible. Unless ZH is wrong and overhyping something bad. (could be possible)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...-excess-demand

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-debut-lenders