Unless the tax credits are funded by gasoline taxes instead of income taxes.

I completely agree with you. I'm just putting on SJW hat and scoring Tesla based on that.

I have to say I enjoy the all-purpose rationality of the TSLA bears.

Congatulations Tesla. One year after breaking up with MobileEye following Musk's decapitation of one of his customers, 7 months after promising AP1 equivalence, Tesla has a feature working that's been in cars since the early 2000s: Automatic Emergency Braking:

Truly a remarkable accomplishment for Tesla's crack "autonomous driving" team, which is years ahead of everyone else, according to what the "experts" in this thread were claiming not six months ago.

In other news, Toyota announced that they've cracked solid state lithium ion batteries, and are putting it into production.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-...ies-1500985883

Lol, that's not what the article says - I mean you only need to read the intro...

Read the rest of the article. I guess you need a subscription.

I think you need to learn reading, I mean the article says explicitly this:

Do you not feel embarrassed when you write this:
And you complain about Musk's hype for things.

I would like to get an update from you on the state of Porsche's full electric vehicle that you yourself described as the Tesla killer or Bosch's new battery technology that you used as an example why Tesla was nowhere and not ahead.

I guess I need to explain to you clowns how the research/production cycle works?

From fully cracking a technology to having it in full production is 3-6 years. The technology is finished. Toyota have solid state lithium batteries, with all of their many advantages, working. They are onto the production engineering stage, where you design all the elements for mass scale production.

Sure. It was slated for 2020, but they've moved it up to 2019, and it's progressing so well that Porsche is moving up the transition to electrify half its fleet. It's on track for 2019 release, and Porsche is tripling its initial production run.
Key features:

- A non-moron battery design (much higher voltage) that can charge to 80% in 15 minutes, unlike Tesla's clown show where you set around for more than twice that.
- A futuristic HUD system
- An absolutely gorgeous design that makes the Model S/X look cheap.

It'll certainly cut into S sales substantially, which have already plateaued.

The point being quite simply that:

- Tesla are very inferior at making the top of the car
- There are many, many battery designs and technologies that are superior to Tesla's. Tesla are wedded to laptop battery system from 2013. All of their advantages (at present) are wedded to their complex duct-tape engineering of these systems that burned up billions for no reason, except to create a heavily subsidized, vastly money losing monopoly on a tiny volume of cars.

Different designs will make this obsolete. Far faster charging (like ones that run off the ultra high throughput charging stations a consortium of European car makers are building out right now with Siemens), better charge holding, etc. Tesla, in their stupidity, have wedded themselves to a single battery maker and a multi billion dollar factory (which they don't even own but are chipping in for), based on dated cell technology.

The point is that Tesla are going to have zero advantages in batteries, and batteries generally will become commodities once sufficient power density is reached. All of the things that people love about Model S/X are the electric drive; the rest of Tesla is pure ****.

Well, this is an oversimplification of how this works. What they now have is probably a prototype that has not been tested and is now going through the final stages of testing. They have not solved anything. They achieved something in the laboratory and plan on deploying it in the manufacturing process within the next couple of years.

The next step is using the technology in a small quantity product to test the promise of the technology.

They are certainly not at the stage where they are designing everything for mass scale production. This is so laughably wrong and based on no facts, I don't even know why you would say them out loud.

The mere fact that you think that Toyota is now going ahead and redesigning factories and manufacturing equipment to accommodate something that is in the final stages of research is so laughable. I hope when people read your posts and agree with you that they understand that the stuff you provide as evidence against Tesla is basically you sitting in front of your greeks and seeing an article pop up: "Toyota achieved something with batteries" and you consequently thinking that Toyota now solved solid state batteries.

It's pure comedy and you are wiping the floor with yourself to use one of your idioms.

It has always been in the range of 2018 to 2020. Initial reports claimed 2018 but they soon shifted to 2020. The thing that you claim as being "so well" is a strategic decision and has not much to do with the progress of the Mission E development. At least not, if you take the linked article as grounds for it.

Well, we don't know anything about the price yet so I am not sure how you can claim this. Also, they are planning for 20'000 cars worldwide. Pretty sure the demand for electric cars will be higher than let's say 35'000 cars. So it won't cut into anything.

The Mission E is prettier than the Model S and if Porsche can execute on an all-electric vehicle they will have a lot of demand. But that's to be decided in 2020. So Tesla is way ahead of them having sales bigger than what Porsche tries to achieve in 3 years.

This is just rambling at this point. There is some truth to it but a lot of stuff you are claiming is based on something someone said in an article and is not based in reality.

It's past the final stages of research. You don't do production planning until the technology is proven. This would have happened > 2 years ago. There are dozens of things that work very well in the lab that are either

a) too costly to put into production
b) have life cycle reliability problems
c) just don't give enough of a cost/benefit tradeoff over existing tech to put into production.

If Toyota are at the production planning stage, if they're announcing solid state lithium batteries, the tech was proven years ago in the lab. They've since done testing, manufacturability studies, etc etc. They are ready to do production planning.

You're just a total moron who doesn't know what he's talking about. You don't know how the world works and you can't reason. Which is why you and all the other Tesla morons thought Tesla was ahead of the competition on autonomous driving, while I told you repeatedly it was obvious they weren't. You've STFU about that one now.

The only question remaining is the final cost. It's obviously good if they're moving onto production planning, but like anything there can always be hickups. But the idea that they haven't gotten this working is risible. They'll already have done prototype manufacturing and large scale testing if they're nearing the production planning phase of R&D.
Toyota has solved solid state batteries. That isn't arguable. You're unhinged, dude. You have no idea how R&D works.

You seem really butthurt that they're pulling ahead of schedule. You asked me for an update on the Mission E and you got it, then got all snarky when you didn't like the answer.

This is absurd. This is the first electric sports with great performance and range able to take on the Model S and you think "it won't cut into anything". You are unhinged, bro.

It won't cut into Model 3. It'll cut into Model S though, in which there's >2x the revenue of Model 3.

Of course Tesla are ahead of them. The claim is that it will cut into Model S demand, which is already plateauing.

Just how big do you think the luxury sports car industry? Your claim they'll "have a lot of sales if they can execute" but that it "won't cut into anything" is just self-ownage.

ok bro. You don't even trade. You don't understand tech at all, manufacturing, business. Why do you even post? Because you have a hardon for the man who makes rockets fly? It's weird, bro.

I'm going to send you to wiki to educate you a little, since you don't know the first thing about R&D and the manufacturing process. Toyota are in the production engineering phase for solid state lithium ion batteries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_engineering

That means the technology has been proven for years and it's passed all tests of manufacturability and reliability. It's far along the R&D path and now they're into the phase of working out the most cost efficient and scalable way of building at commercial scale (millions of units).

Jesus man. Just WTF. Why are all the Tesla bulls so utterly clueless?

And how long does it take to implement commercial scale? Gigafactory took 3-6y?

<thinking emoji>

Again, you post a lot and provide no ****ing content. And you provide a Wikipedia entry that is saying the exact thing I tried to teach you.

Read: they are now looking at designing machines that would be able to deliver what they are looking for.

To be clear, this is at the end of the research phase.

Read: Once they have tested the system and have the basics done, they will go into the process of building out the machines to actually produce something.

This isn't even difficult to understand but again you are trying to argue from a perspective of greeks while others ITT have shown you time and time again how simple your mind works and how difficult and different the real world works.

P.S. Tesla is ahead on autonomous driving. I shut up about it because it wasn't worth debating. They have the only car on the road that uses the technology and soon will have a lot more. But again, you failed so miserably at explaining your stupid reasoning on machine learning that a debate would not yield much success.

Amazing, brazenly dishonest backtrack, but we have you posted just a few posts up:
This is false. Production engineering is way past final testing.
Of course they've solved something, or they wouldn't be in the production engineering phase. And you know it now too or you wouldn't be backtracking so furiously.
This stage would have been completed years ago if they're entering production engineering. Again you have no ****ing clue what you're talking about.
That is precisely the stage they're at. It takes 3-4 years to go from "start designing the process of mass scale production" to actual mass scale production.

That is precisely what they're doing.

The last sentence, what I'm "consequently thinking", is precisely what's happening, dude. Toyota have solved solid state batteries, tested them extensively, tested them for commercial manufacturability, and found something that's commerically viable. And now they're at the production engineering phase where they go through the long process of designing cheap-as-possible mass production.

Dude, just stop posting about anything related to production or how the process of getting anything to production works. You are completely and utterly clueless.

They are in the final stages of testing this stuff and will have a long way to go to enter mass production. You claimed they were about to enter mass production which is a very stupid thing to say.

I have my doubts that you have actually seen a production site from within in your life, let alone took part in a process that would eventually lead up to mass production. Don't talk about this stuff. Talk about short-term volatility swings and how this will affect the Tesla stock, that's what you know. Stop talking about large scale and complex processes and how business models work, you have no qualification to do so.

+1

Bears getting desperate!

I thought he just clearly stated they are 3+ years out?

By their own admission they are 5 years out.

His first comment on it was that they are about to start mass production which irked me. I probably exaggerated a bit yesterday but complaining about Musk's hype of things and then blatantly misleading people by saying they are about to start mass production is a bit hypocritical.

I didn't even read the article. I just enjoy reading the rampant misinformation TS and other's put out.

Going from a proof of concept to a prototype (where they are at) to mass production for even trivial items takes months. For something as complex as lithium ion batteries, obviously the time is years (for secret gov't technology maybe decades).

I'm just curious how he plans to rejoin his various comments or if he'll just ignore this (like his prior errant comments on finance) and continue to rant about a business he barely understands.

I'm going with ignore and rant.

Not only are you a total moron (as evidenced in full above), but you're a liar.

I never said anything of the sort. Quote where I said "they are about to start mass production" or apologize. Thanks.

The only false statements made are yours. Even you realize they are false and ridiculous by how quickly and desperately you backtracked. And now lie.

You said "they've cracked it and are putting it into production" when it appears they are not putting anything into production for 3-5 years. (Assuming the posts above about 3-5 years are correct, I didn't read it.)

Entering the production engineering phase is not putting it into production.

And that's precisely what they're doing. They've solved solid state technology and are putting it into production. This is a true statement.

I didn't say they're "about to start mass production". I said nothing of the sort.

The above combined with the linked article is not misleading in any way. It's a massive breakthrough and a huge deal that they're putting solid state lithium ion battery into production.
Prototype > decide to put into production > design and build production facilities > smaller scale production > mass production.

Toyota has cracked the tech and are putting it into production. They're probably 1-1.5 years away from having the first production units roll off the factory floor. Then they build more factories to scale it to mass production and it goes into hundreds of thousands of cars

At no point did I ever say "they're about to start mass production" as Spurious claims.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...battery-design

http://in.reuters.com/article/toyota...-idINKBN1AA03S

Apologies, if you didn't mean mass production but only production. Not sure I understand the difference between the two in a case of Toyota and a thread about Tesla. But yeah, I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

Glad we had that semantic debate on production vs mass production.

(heltok this is another example of where being unclear derails the thread)

Unsure what context those would not be the exact same thing. Prob should have taken a biz english class instead of linear algebra.