lol "stuck with binding agreements". Tesla put huge pressure on panasonic to increase production and part of that agreement was a minimum production capacity. This must be difficult for you to grasp since you've spent the last year talking about "demand death" whereas Tesla have so much demand the battery companies have to sign deals which don't allow them to provide less than the largest amounts they've ever done before.

Seems like a strange choice to have such a huge DEMAND DEATH but yet have clauses that guarantee you a huge mimimum production.

Maybe you wanna speak to your bear pal about the panasonic batteries, because even he says Tesla are making batteries at the Gigafactory in a joint venture.

Having spent the last 15mins reading your previous posts on Tesla ITT I must have legit LOL'd 10 times at your predictions especially over the past 6 months.

"1k week runrate in china lol" They now avg 3k per week and will be at 5k by end of the year.

"in for a devasting quarter" and citing some clown who had deliveries at 65k, great call.


Out of curiosity what are you going to say when the battery day tour is public and Tesla show the battery cell production system you claim they don't have the in house ability to do? I'd like to know now so I have some quotable material. I've also made my Q3 delivery prediction, let's hear your number.

Colour me shocked that you can't read.

Solid logic here. Tesla has no competitive advantage it's just that all these other carmakers decided to put out EV's with inferior batteries because..................................... reasons.

What I did was give people who claim to be knowledgeable the benefit of the doubt.

Being unable to read would be researching a subject and coming to horribly wrong conclusions. Like thinking roadrunner is operational, or that powerwall is equivalent to a million mile car battery

And you should probably lose the stock price bro attitude with me as I'm on the record for being up over 6 figures on Tesla trades

So with the robo-taxis claim out of the way, you are going to focus on batteries?
Nobody is going to corner the battery market, and certainly not Tesla.

A couple years ago Mark Cuban said that Elon Musk is using Tesla as a proof of concept for their battery technology. I'm not in a position to argue this claim, but I thought it was interesting to share the fact that a savvy investor has expressed this view. He said this on an episode of Shark Tank.

Mark Cuban, the well known battery expert.

Ah yes, Tesla is a battery company now.

I mean, they were a software company 2 years ago, but they have delivered none of the promised software so I guess they are a battery company now.

Tesla is a "Vision" company. It will go wherever the "vision" leads. Be that software, batteries, self-driving cars, solar roofs, or living on Mars. It's the future - and you either get on the train (on underground tracks in a tunnel made by the Boring Company, speed only limited by air friction, of course) or you will miss out.

Researching the subject would mean you knew that Tesla announced they where about to start making their own batteries, had patents and set up a line at fremont to use them, then organised an event to show said production system and make it available to the public. But despite all this as well as them already making batteries with Pana/CATL you came to the conclusion they didn't make their own.

I used the powerwall as an example of why it's silly to judge a battery only by it's life cycle. CATL may have a MMB but if it performs worse on all the metrics I spoke about above it's about as useful to the "compeittion" as a powerwall. Not only that but the head of CATL said that battery would be 10% more expensive than what they currently produce (something conveniently left out by all the Bears) Tesla competition can't put out a car to match them in is price/performance already, how exactly will they do it with batteries 10% more expensive?

Depends on what you mean by "robo taxi claim". I'm long on Tesla so I don't particularly GAF if Elon is always too aggressive in his predictions. It obviously upsets the day traders though.

The MMB is directly linked to the robo-taxis and FSD. Avg car user in the US does something like 13k miles a year so having a MMB just isn't that high on the list of priorities given how long it would take to become relevant. MMB is however very high in the list of priorities for vehicles like a robotaxi or transport industry that racks up huge mileage.

If Tesla didn't have plans to enter that market it would be a waste of time in developing the tech/batteries to do so.

I'm still waiting on one of you bears to give me a reason as to how Tesla can outperform the competition by such a degree without any advantage in the battery market.

Bandit, what do you have to say about independent testing that shows that Tesla batteries don't perform as well as advertised

Like, people keep linking you to facts, and all you do is spew your opinions back. Link something, source it, prove the claims you make.

Stop spouting off Tesla's specs and blogboi BS

Loololl do you think that Tesla just slaps a giant sticker down that says "Long range model S 400+ miles" and it doesn't have to be verified by any kind of regulatory agency? The cars are independently tested in every market they enter.

and then they magically underperform those tests in real world driving and are within margin of every other ev. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
if they don't go up in flames, that is.

Yeah man, because Musk has so much respect for regulatory agencies. Just look at the respect he has for the SEC!!!

Is it not that you are both right and wrong?

They're using Panasonic cells atm but are developing their own eventually much like many of their components? So they DO make cells but they're not good enough to go in their cars yet.

Atm they sell cars, dreams and nothing else?

Why don't you post all the independent sources with that evidence then?

I can happily link you to 10+ independent sources that review all things EV with Tesla range being +1 AINEC.

Some serious WANTING here. The EPA tests the vehicles and no manufacturer can just put up their own mileage. Try again.

10 sources will be enough

Please God, post sources. I already asked. Don't ****ing talk about it

And yeah, no one has ever pulled one over on the EPA! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volk...ssions_scandal

Oh, wait

https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/16/th...s-on-a-charge/

Environmental protection agency count as a source?

because i don't care what you believe.
just putting trying to put your "tesla is the greatest at everything, they just don't use their own stuff right now" into perspective.

na, i'm good.
read enough of those for two lifetimes.

It is amazing how much confusion and conjecture has been thrown out in this tread re battery tech.

I speak as the person who
a) has definitely invested the most $$ in the space by current 2+2 posters
b) has done DD to justify those investments, including a follow up investment 3 months ago.

I wrote a longer post that got erased. Frustrating. Here are my remaining thoughts instead:

1. No one knows what Tesla will say on "battery day" until it happens. That said, anyone familiar with the company's history should expect an over-promise about something "in the near future." One thing's for, there is a 0% chance Tesla has created a world-beating next-gen battery that is commercially scalable with current manufacturing, and Elon decided it was in tesla's best interest to go stealth and delay revealing it for months.

2. They were panasonic cells. They are panasonic cells. They will be panasonic cells (for now). There are many ways to tweak battery cell chemistry. Everyone is pushing to find the best performance/cost. In the joint venture, is it possible Tesla contributed a specific chemical modification? Sure. But without getting into the details, it would only be a modified panasonic battery. The JV was manufacturing focused, paying for the reno gigafactory. But there's enough that prevented panasonic from seling

3. CATL are very solid. Anyone who thinks Tesla is about to introduce a battery cell that crushes CATL is just lol.

4. Somi- a few reasons why tesla cars have superior numbers, a few mentioned above. On a cellular level, the top of the line offerings are all pretty similar right now. LI-ion has hit a wall until the next breakthrough.

a. car-side issues; power consumption, etc.
b. if another company has a slightly superior battery tech, it has to be economically worth it to alter their assembly lines. Some chemical improvements are cost-prohibitive to implement if they don't expect sales to significantly increase.
c. business relationships matter. panasonic and tesla were wed. there's a reason why tesla was the only EV maker to be powered by panasonic up until recently -and it isn't because they're really tesla cells. maybe there's a reason why the panasonic/toyota deal happened within weeks of the first tesla/catl leaks this year?
d. more things matter for the battery than just the cell. could be the battery pack or the modules inside use unique tesla insights. but again, the cell chemistry is what really matters going forward and that most certainly isn't coming from tesla.

4. $/kwh is by far the stat that matters most. "1 million mile" battery is a totally worthless stat other than the brilliant headline generation.

5. In 2.5 months, a private company I'm significantly invested in will have manufactured the first real "next-gen" battery. I will guarantee you their stats will crush anything discussed on battery-day. They will be the single best commercially-viable batteries ever manufactured by man.

edit: bonus reading about LIB supply chains for EVs: https://www.usitc.gov/publications/3..._batteries.pdf

If you don't care what I believe then stop responding to my posts with nonsense you can't substantiate since apparently an EPA testing facility along with numerous other regulatory bodies aren't part of "the real world".

na, i think i'll keep doing that until i see that mega-giga-super-battery that's definitely coming very soon after giga-awesome-totally-real-product-that-we-will-totally-produce-just-like-the-solar-roof-battery-day. until i see it in a production car, that is.

LOL

Just little guy musk over here, just him against the world. Utmost respect for the EPA obviously.

Its amazing how hes one of the richest and most powerful people in the world and he still acts like hes the victim in every situation.

Its really part of the cult at this point. He just says something and twitter laps it up. Musk hates you all too. Its very obvious.

There is no question at all Tesla is NOT making the battery cells or can realistically be expected to make them anytime soon. Battery cells are a commodity business with incredimental improvements that require billions upon billions in capital investments and R&D to get small improvements.

There is also no question at all that Tesla's battery PACKS are giving Tesla vehicles more power, range, and very probably longevity (the decay so far is lower than projected) than competitors are managing.

Slightly different chemistry in the cells produced by Panasaonic? Proprietary tech in aseembling the packs? Power train efficiency in the motors? Better software managing the temperatures of the battery packs? I don't know.

PS: in the context of electric vehicles, it's not only about kwh/$ because the ultimate goal is range. High kwh/$ but low kwh/weight unit can create a situation where range/$ is worse.

1. We don't know everything Tesla will show on battery day but we do know some of what they will show I.,E the new cell production system, most likely a pilot line with new technology and the plan being to rollout that tech In Giga's soon after. Scaling battery production has been seen as a limiting factor for Tesla for yeas now (rightly so) and I expect this to be one of the areas that's addressed in battery day, this isn't just an issue for Tesla though everyone in the EV space has this problem. It's also what made Toothsayers argument that Tesla had a deal with panasonic locking them in for years of batteries as a bad thing so laughable.

2. A lot of Tesla's battery advantages come from the in house custom electronics/batterypack/modules and software used to optimise the car. How much of the actual battery modifications are down to Tesla is more of an unknown but they do have a number of patents and their own battery tech R&D.

3. My post about CATL was aimed towards the point you made in 4 , btw you have 4 down 2x in that post so for clarity im referring to the 4 which says. I agree with this and tried pointing it out to the BEARS itt. CATL having a MMB at 10% extra cost just isn't a viable business choice for almost any of these companies for reasons I outlined above.

4b- This is one of the main reasons ICE makers have fallen so far behind Tesla, they operate on thin margins and having to reconfigure the assembly lines only to make a car that A: underperforms vs Tesla and B) are being made at a loss has them in a tough spot especially for those already operating in the red I.E Ford just got wrecked in it's last set of financials.

5. What company is that? How do they plan to manufacture the next gen batteries at a commercial level?