definitely dust off the ole extrapolation language

You don't even have one foot on the ground of reality do you?

What specifically did I say that wasn't real or reasonable?

- That the FSD package (separate from autopilot) has been pure fraud $5000 vaporware for 4+ years, always coming soon?
- Any of the quotes about what their marketing literature claims or what Musk claims?
- That Tesla cars are guaranateed to slam you into stationary objects because they can't see them?
- The the NHTSA and SEC are in Musk's pocket, given their extreme lack of action against this fraud, as called out by a former SEC chairman, current SEC board members, and the NTSB yesterday? Jay Clayton's extraordinary personal intervention in the Musk prosecution should give you pause even as a fanboy.

Please be specific about what's not "grounded in reality".

You're creating a picture that isn't there. First of all he never said it was perfect, in fact he has been saying they need to solve the last percentage points and this takes a lot of effort. If you relate autopilot with "not needing to be at the wheel", then why do planes still have pilots? That's because the name isn't in the slightest meant to imply you don't have to do anything. Full self driving is a different product than autopilot. The fact there are ******s out there that trust this system with their lives have to accept the slight probability of dying, just like we all expect from human drivers except those aren't under scrutiny. I have to dodge tens of people every time I use the public roads because people are stuck to their phones and are literally unguided objects that are ****ing dangerous.

Oh and holding the SEC in his pocket, wow. Just wow.

Excellent. When I have time I will quote every Musk fraud quote about autopilot/FSD (there are dozens that now look comically stupid and together are clearly deliberate fraud to sell FSD vaporware at $5000/each).

If it was just the name "autopilot" and not the whole list of related marketing stuff that creates a false picture, then sure.
You have no idea how big business/the real world works, do you? It's corrupt, sadly, and Musk's is so egregious that a former SEC chairman, reporters, current SEC staff AND the NTSB are calling out the extraordinary lack of enforcement of what are clear major frauds and dangers. That never happens.

You're right, that never happens. That's why (almost) nobody went to jail after the 07/08 crisis. The fact they choose to put some BS measures on Tesla/Elon is the reason I know they're full of **** because they don't actually want to do anything against actual fraud.

Oh by the way, you need your hands at the wheel for autopilot. Don't know how that idiot managed to evade that system (there are several ways that aren't by accident and the user has to know what they're about to do) but don't you think the user takes the full responsibility when they start evading safety features?

Definitely take full responsibility when they deliberately evade well designed safety checks

Doesn't excuse the manufacturer from dishonest hype, but definitely liability in my view.

And right on cue, the greatest con of all time, confirmed. From Twitter:



In the year when Musk claimed to investors when asking for $2.7 billion that they would be "fully self driving feature complete" by end of year - meaning able to drive anywhere autonomously - they had 12 autonomous testing miles in the state where their team is based. 12. And all 12 were for an investor day demo video. So they actually had zero autonomous testing miles.

Fully Self Driving "feature complete" and "1 million autonomous taxis in 2020" with zero real world tested miles.

Anyone who looks at this and thinks that Musk isn't a giant fraud has something wrong with them imo.

Maybe they test elsewhere and the above is just them completing their legal obligation to report autonomous driving in CA.

Was watching the Elon interview with Joe Rogan. In the interview Joe asked him what he does with his minimal free time cause he is very busy. Elon claimed "I am working on engineering projects". He is either completely full of **** and he plays video games all day or he actually is working on something. But the chance he is a fraud richie rich has got to be decently high.

No, lol, just no. You test where your team is and where you have friendly regulations. Nothing else makes sense. The above is real - they are not testing any FSD stuff on any actual road anywhere in the world. It is multiple years from catching up with where Waymo is right now. They have nothing workable; FSD is a pure bullshit narrative.

And your quote is also what people said in 2016/17 when I brought up the lack of miles "Oh they're testing elsewhere" or "They don't need to test because they test in shadow mode on the fleet = "

They're frauds. Always have been, always will be.

Can somebody explain to me why a fraud that just banked a couple of hundred million dollars would put almost 20 years into a rocket company, of which few if any new ones succeed, and an American car company of which again, few if any new ones succeed and leverage himself up to the tits even during the recession? During which 20 year period he of course is able to borrow against shares but would go completely bankrupt and in debt if his "fraud" would be proven and/or the companies that have very little chance of succeeding do not make it. He would have been close to a billionaire if he invested the money right now anyways. During this almost 20 years he got laughed at and questioned all the way through. In the meanwhile what the world got is a push to sustainable transport and energy storage and an actual path to the first human exploration of Mars within reach. Shareholders also made a whole ****ton of money in the meanwhile.

Please, someone explain to me why would put himself through that. I would just love to know what sick and twisted projection you're going to use.

Mars? Maybe just shoot for the moon first.

Mars requires a completely different architecture like in orbit refueling and re-entry profile than the moon. If they make a viable rocket for the moon they a whole new family of rockets for Mars, while on the flipside if they make a rocket that is capable of landing on Mars it automatically is able to land on the moon.

But yeah, the plan is to send the first one(s) to the moon and Mars in quick succession.

Even if you miss, you'll land amongst the Starlinks.™

I think it's pretty simple, really. I assume he didn't start out intending to run a fraud. Just standard narcissism and delusions of grandeur at first--trying to save the world and thinking he was smarter than everyone else. Hence all the talk about "the machine that builds the machine", robots so fast they would be limited by air friction, layers of "barnacles" in the industry, "moats are lame", etc.

But when your businesses keep burning cash, you need to keep raising money. And when the underlying fundamentals of the business are ****, the only real way to raise money is to sell a story about the future. And the better the story you tell, the more money you can raise, on better terms. Hence the focus on controlling the narrative (see: attacking skabooshka, Montana Skeptic, Martin Tripp; the MobileEye breakup; Porsche Taycan vs Model S track performance; Panasonic relationship; Tesla Insurance; $420 buyout), and hype of future growth prospects (constant talk of "ramping", "exponential growth", "orders of magnitude", solar roof, full self-driving, robotaxis, $35k Model 3, China, Cybertruck "reservations", etc.)

Sprinkle in some government subsidies where fraud and deception come in handy as well (battery swap, NY gigafactory), combined with a general sense of being above the law, and here we are. A lot of it may not even be prosecutable, as Musk is quite clever and careful to cover his ass with his words. But the pattern and the intent to deceive are clearly evident to anyone with half a clue at this point. As Chanos calls it, "legal fraud."

"People don't understand exponential growth"

noob,
Pretty much. The immoral and dangerous people are often those that think they have virtue or a greater good on their side.

Musk has also sold a story about himself very nicely, which Kelvis has swallowed. We have documentary evidence of his intense personal PR efforts going as far back as 2006.

TS, you're a sad, cynical bitter person. You couldn't imagine any person doing anything that doesn't is even slightly in interest of other people, because you would never. You would scam people out of money at every opportunity possible and therefor can't even begin to think someone is actually genuine. And to add to that you don't even make trades, so you don't even exploit your worst characteristics to take money from other people. All you do is whine about someone that is smarter than you, has more money than you, has achieved a metric ****ton more than you in the hope you get an audience and becomes just as bitter as you.

It's probably not even your fault though. Whatever it is you're probably the victim of it so I will leave you to complain about everything in this world in piece. On ignore now, don't bother replying. Good luck in life and have some joy once in a while.

True, he takes his personal PR very seriously--calling himself a founder of Tesla, lashing out at Unsworth, Bill Gates, reporters, etc. Maybe narcissism plays a bigger role in it all than I thought, and blaming it all on self-preservation and the need to keep raising money is actually being too charitable lol.

This is the reaction someone gives when they're stuck in a carefully cultivated cult of personality and can't hear the truth about their leader. People lash out the same way at those who criticize the Scientology leader or the head of Theranos (mysogyny!)

The difference with you though is that you know what I say is true - the evidence is right there - which is why you have such a visceral, lashing out reaction to when I present truth to you.
What was that about projecting? I've never scammed anyone ever. Musk is one of the biggest scammers of our generation.

This is just hero worship run amok.

I'm calling out a fraud for being a fraud, and a narcissist for building a cult of personality which entraps people like you (see: your post above), and I present copious evidence for same.

noob answered your question pretty well, but it's quite simple: frauds just become frauds out of habit. Lots of reasons why it happens:

- You want to push the boundaries (Enron), be the smartest guys in the room (Musk and Enron), present the best face of the company you can

- You're incompetent with a rich daddy and have lied your whole life to cover it; doing it in business is natural.

- You start off small to make up a shortfall or get an investment, find it works, and keep pushing the boundaries. The more you believe in your own righteousness and that of your cause, the more you're likely to do this. Few people (even murderers) think they're a bad person or that what they did was unjustified. Musk straight up admits to lying to get investors back in 2009. It worked and he kept it going for an unprofitable business that needed tens of billions in capital with no profit. It's survival, right? Survival of a great cause. Who wouldn't push the boundaries when the alternative is it all falling apart for lack of money and your dreams dying?

- You're a narcissist who sees yourself as fighting enemies and don't mind fighting back dirty to win, as your cause is righteous. Musk has no issue sliming an innocent man as a pedophile because Musk was criticized. Attacking journalists, doxing people, calling up their bosses to have them shut down, filing fake workplace harassment charges, calling a SWAT team on an innocent whistleblower with a fake complaint. There is heaps of evidence Musk is a seriously unhinged narcissist.

- You start off small out of carelessness, or because something goes wrong, get caught in a lie, and can't stop (Madoff was a founding member of Nasdaq and highly successful; he didn't need a ponzi scheme but once too deep just kept it going - for 20 years and $30 billion)

- You're a salesman who pushes the envelope on the notion that "caveat emptor" and it's not really wrong, everyone does it.

That's only scratching the surface. You don't understand people very well and how habits develop, you have a very childish view of what Musk would do and why. Part of that is the PR he's carefully cultivated.

It's a game for sure. That's part of it. He's the king dick who can break the rules and get away with it. Look at this video and how the guy taunted the SEC. He's gone in the head, off on a game of "no one can touch me":



And when you have money and power it's not hard to actually make that happen.

Kelvis, just read up a little on the principles of fraud. Its pretty simple stuff.

It almost always starts off small, out of a "necessity" that is easy to rationalize.

Its good people a lot of the time too. Church treasurers, old accounting clerks, small business owners who extend beyond their means.

My first job, the son was stealing cash... started off small, just enough to buy drinks after work. Then slowly got bigger and bigger. He didnt' even need it, his mom already paid for everything out of the company coffers. My current job, the old owner sold his stake for millions and was making six figures to do nothing as a "consultant". Blew all his money on a restaurant then started committing payroll fraud by adding his daughter as a ghost employee. They are both pretty nice guys and far from a narcissist or sociopath.

And who is he stealing money from in his fraud?

You