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07-09-2019 , 10:56 AM

#8901

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

https://hcai.mit.edu/tesla-autopilot...-and-vehicles/

Tesla Vehicle Deliveries and Autopilot Mileage Statistics.

Currrent autopilot miles = 1,557,569,997

Last edited by despacito; 07-09-2019 at 11:08 AM.

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07-09-2019 , 11:12 AM

#8902

BooLoo

adept

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 945

go ahead, find out for yourself how much data is actually being sent back to tesla per car.

Quote

07-09-2019 , 11:19 AM

#8903

ToothSayer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 13,237

What does level 2 driver assist have to do with fully autonomous robotaxis? Will despacito ever think for himself?

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07-09-2019 , 11:32 AM

#8904

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooLoo

go ahead, find out for yourself how much data is actually being sent back to tesla per car.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors...t_hw3_details/

Quote:

Originally Posted by https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/acjdrt/tesla_autopilot_hw3_details/

For the past few months Tesla has been slowly sharing details of its upcoming “Hardware 3” (HW3) changes soon to be introduced into its S/X/3 lineup. Tesla has stated that cars will begin to be built with the new computer sometime in the first half of 2019, and they have said that this is a simple computer upgrade, with all vehicle sensors (radar, ultrasonics, cameras) staying the same.

Today we have some information about what HW3 actually will (and won’t) be:

What do we know about the Tesla’s upcoming HW3? We actually know quite a bit now thanks to Tesla’s latest firmware. The codename of the new HW3 computer is “TURBO”.

Hardware:

We believe the new hardware is based on Samsung Exynos 7xxx SoC, based on the existence of ARM A72 cores (this would not be a super new SoC, as the Exynos SoC is about an Oct 2015 vintage). HW3 CPU cores are clocked at 1.6GHz, with a MALI GPU at 250MHz and memory speed 533MHz.

HW3 architecture is similar to HW2.5 in that there are two separate compute nodes (called “sides”): the “A” side that does all the work and the “B” side that currently does not do anything.

Also, it appears there are some devices attached to this SoC. Obviously, there is some emmc storage, but more importantly there’s a Tesla PCI-Ex device named “TRIP” that works as the NN accelerator. The name might be an acronym for “Tensor <something> Inference Processor”. In fact, there are at least two such “TRIP” devices, and maybe possibly two per “side”.

As of mid-December, this early firmware’s state of things were in relative early bring-up. No actual autopilot functionality appears included yet, with most of the code just copied over from existing HW2.5 infrastructure. So far all the cameras seem to be the same.

It is running Linux kernel 4.14 outside of the usual BuildRoot 2 environment.

In reviewing the firmware, we find descriptions of quite a few HW3 board revisions already (8 of them actually) and hardware for model 3 and S/X are separate versions too (understandably).

The “TRIP” device obviously is the most interesting one. A special firmware that encompasses binary NN (neural net) data is loaded there and then eventually queried by the car vision code. The device runs at 400MHz. Both “TRIP” devices currently load the same NNs, but possibly only a subset is executed on each?

With the Exynos SoC being a 2015 vintage and in consideration of comments made by Peter Bannon on the Q2 2018 earnings call, (he said “three years ago when I joined Tesla we did a survey of all of the solutions” = 2nd half of 2015), does this look like the current HW2/HW2.5 NVIDIA autopilot units were always viewed as a stop-gap and hence the lack of perceived computation power everybody was accusing Tesla of at the time of AP2 release was not viewed as important by Tesla?

SOFTWARE:

In reviewing the binaries in this new firmware, u/DamianXVI was able to work out a pretty good idea of what the “TRIP” coprocessor does on HW3 (he has an outstanding ability to look at and interpret binary data!):

The “TRIP” software seems to be a straight list of instructions aligned to 32 bytes (256 bits). Programs operate on two types of memory, one for input/output and one for working memory. The former is likely system DRAM and the latter internal SRAM. Memory operations include data loading, weight loading, and writing output. Program operations are pipelined with data loads and computations interleaved and weight fetching happening well upstream from the instructions that actually use those weights. Weights seem to be compressed from the observation that they get copied to an internal region that is substantially larger than the source region with decompression/unpacking happening as part of the weight loading operation. Intermediate results are kept in working memory with only final results being output to shared memory.

Weights are loaded from shared memory into working memory and maintained in a reserved slot which is referenced by number in processing instructions. Individual processing instructions reference input, output, and weights in working memory. Some processing instructions do not reference weights and these seem to be pooling operations.

u/DamianXVI created graphical visualizations of this data flow for some of the networks observed in the binaries. This is not a visualization of the network architecture, it is a visualization of instructions and their data dependencies. In these visualizations, green boxes are data load/store. White boxes is weights load. Blue are computation instructions with weights, red and orange are computation blocks without weights. Black links show output / input overlapping between associated processing operations. Blue links connect associated weight data. These visualizations are representative of a rough and cursory understanding of the data flow. Obviously, it is likely many links are missing and some might be wrong. Regardless, you can see the complexity being introduced with these networks.

What is very interesting is that u/DamianXVI concluded that these visualizations look like GoogleNet. At the outset, he did not work with the intention to see if Tesla’s architecture was similar to GoogleNet; he hadn’t even seen GoogleNet before, but as he assembled the visualization the similarities appeared.

Diagrams: https://imgur.com/a/nAAhnyW

After understanding the new hardware and NN architecture a bit, we then asked u/jimmy_d to comment and here’s what he has to say:

“Damian’s analysis describes exactly what you’d want in an NN processor. A small number of operations that distill the essence of processing a neural network: load input from shared memory/ load weights from shared memory / process a layer and save results to on-chip memory / process the next layer … / write the output to shared memory. It does the maximum amount of work in hardware but leaves enough flexibility to efficiently execute any kind of neural network.

And thanks Damian’s heroic file format analysis I was able to take a look at some neural network dataflow diagrams and make some estimates of what the associate HW3 networks are doing. Unfortunately, I didn’t find anything to get excited about. The networks I looked at are probably a HW3 compatible port of the networks that are currently running on HW2.

What I see is a set of networks that are somewhat refined compared to earlier versions, but basically the same inputs and outputs and small enough that they can run on the GPU in HW2. So still no further sightings of “AKNET_V9”: the unified, multi frame, camera agnostic architecture that I got a glimpse of last year. Karpathy mentioned on the previous earnings call that Tesla already had bigger networks with better performance that require HW3 to run. What I’ve seen so far in this new HW3 firmware is not those networks.

What we know about the HW3 NN processor right now is pretty limited. Apparently there are two “TRIP” units which seem to be organized as big matrix multipliers with integrated accumulators, nonlinear operators, and substantial integrated memory for storing layer activations. Additionally it looks like weight decompression is implemented in hardware. This is what I get from looking at the primitives in the dataflow and considering what it would take to implement them in hardware. Two big unknowns at the moment are the matrix multiplier size and the onboard memory size. That, plus the DRAM I/O bus width, would let us estimate the performance envelope. We can do a rough estimate as follows:

Damian’s analysis shows a preference for 256 byte block sizes in the load/store instructions. If the matrix multiplier input bus is that width then it suggests that the multiplier is 256xN in size. There are certain architectural advantages to being approximately square, so let’s assume 256x256 for the multiplier size and that it operates at one operation per clock at @verygreen’s identified clock rate of 400MHz. That gives us 26TMACs per second, which is 52Tops per second (a MAC is one multiply and one add which equals two operations). So one TRIP would give us 52Tops and two of them would give us 104Tops. This is assuming perfect utilization. Actual utilization is unlikely to be higher than 95% and probably closer to 75%. Still, it’s a formidable amount of processing for neural network applications. Lets go with 75% utilization, which gives us 40Tops per TRIP or 80Tops total.

As a point of reference - Google’s TPU V1, which is the one that Google uses to actually run neural networks (the other versions are optimized for training) is very similar to the specs I’ve outlined above. From Google’s published data on that part we can tell that the estimates above are reasonable - probably even conservative. Google’s part is 700MHz and benchmarks at 92Tops peak in actual use processing convolutional neural networks. That is the same kind of neural network used by Tesla in autopilot. One likely difference is going to be onboard memory - Google’s TPU has 27MB but Tesla would likely want a lot more than that because they want to run much heavier layers than the ones that the TPU was optimized for. I’d guess they need at least 75MB to run AKNET_V9. All my estimates assume they have budgeted enough onboard SRAM to avoid having to dump intermediate results back to DRAM - which is probably a safe bet.

With that performance level, the HW3 neural nets that I see in this could be run at 1000 frames per second (all cameras simultaneously). This is massive overkill. There’s little reason to run much faster than 40fps for a driving application. The previously noted AKNET_V9 “monster” neural network requires something like 600 billion MACs to process one frame. So a single “TRIP”, using the estimated performance above, could run AKNET_V9 at 66 frames per second. This is closer to the sort of performance that would make sense and AKNET_V9 would be about the size of network one would expect to see running on the trip given the above assumptions.”

TMC discussion at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...ot-hw3.139550/

Super late edit - I looked into the DTB for the device (something I should have done from the start) and the CPU cores could go up to 2.4GHz, the TRIP devices up to 2GHz it looks like? (the speeds quoted initially are from bootloader).

You can see a copy of the dtb here: https://pastebin.com/S6VqrYkS

Quote

07-09-2019 , 11:34 AM

#8905

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToothSayer

What does level 2 driver assist have to do with fully autonomous robotaxis? Will despacito ever think for himself?

Depends...

Also see previous post.

Last edited by despacito; 07-09-2019 at 11:40 AM.

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07-09-2019 , 11:41 AM

#8906

ToothSayer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 13,237

Why are quoting a proven liar and fraud on the topic of Tesla autonomous driving? If you were a rational person you would be quoting me, as I have been far more accurate than Musk on the status of Tesla's autonomous driving in this very thread.

Also, what on Earth does your massive cut and paste have to do with the question posted to you by BooLoo, which you quoted? Are you functionally ******ed in that you can't understand what's being asked of you in the quote you're replying to, or are you a spam-troll fan of Elon? There isn't a third option right now.

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07-09-2019 , 11:49 AM

#8907

grizy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 20,782

THe only thing I am looking for from Tesla on self driving front is image processing technology that lets the cameras replicate the depth data LIDAR provides. Anything short of that is just lol.

Theoretically possible and probably inevitable. (Humans use two eyes to effectively perceive depth and distance in 3D with two 2d images. LIDARs are big and expensive)

Practically impossible for Tesla to pull off within the next few years.
1. They haven’t even worked out how to ID highway dividers.
2. They aren’t even dedicating resources to the AI team.

These hardware revisions not gonna do **** unless they get an army of software engineers to make use of the data (not clear if they are even collecting the the data yet) the hardware feeds to the Tesla database to train whatever AI algorithm they are working with.

Last edited by grizy; 07-09-2019 at 11:54 AM.

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07-09-2019 , 11:49 AM

#8908

Didace

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 20,394

Quote:

Originally Posted by despacito

https://hcai.mit.edu/tesla-autopilot...-and-vehicles/

Tesla Vehicle Deliveries and Autopilot Mileage Statistics.

Currrent autopilot miles = 1,557,569,997

I'm a little bit confused. Does "Autopilot" actually mean autopilot now? When did that change happen?

Quote

07-09-2019 , 11:49 AM

#8909

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToothSayer

It should be obvious. If it's not obvious, you're a moron. Am I doing it right?

You have infinitely less credibility than anyone who works at Tesla. You also incorrectly called Musk a liar about the Gigawatt factory's power sources. The terminal date is end of 2019 which hasn't happened yet. Also, a timeline blowing out != a lie. A change in technical or product direction != lie. Unexpected things happen all the time. Have you ever run a business? Punting on TSLA shorts doesn't count btw.

Last edited by despacito; 07-09-2019 at 12:18 PM.

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07-09-2019 , 11:53 AM

#8910

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didace

I'm a little bit confused. Does "Autopilot" actually mean autopilot now? When did that change happen?

Typo.

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07-09-2019 , 12:21 PM

#8911

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToothSayer

I'm not seeing the "better tech" or "better interface". I could whip up a Netflix equivalent UI in a week of programming. There's nothing complex here. Similarly for "better tech". Netflix uses AWS. And better diversity of content and better marketing than Disney with all its holdings? Are you kidding?

Oh boy...

More credible than Elon Musk
Can whip up a better UI than Netflix in a week
2+2 BFI "thought leader"

How can we invest in your companies?

I actually feel bad for you now.

Last edited by despacito; 07-09-2019 at 12:30 PM.

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07-09-2019 , 12:29 PM

#8912

ToothSayer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 13,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by despacito

Oh boy...

More credible than Elon Musk. Capable of doing in one week what took months/years for the engineering team at Netflix. How can we invest in your companies?

I actually feel bad for you now.

Quote:

"2+2 BFI "thought leader"

That's a joke because someone said how much they hated the term "thought leader".

You should really stop posting, you're making a fool of yourself.

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07-09-2019 , 12:35 PM

#8913

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToothSayer

Yes, on the issue of autonomous driving predictions, I crush the clown Elon Musk. I have been right on everything related to Tesla autonomous driving. But a monkey throwing darts would have beaten Musk as he has been wrong on everything regarding autonomous driving progress and timelines. He is either deliberately lying or stupid. Take your pick.

That's a joke because someone said how much they hated the term "thought leader".

You should really stop posting, you're making a fool of yourself.

You're right. As usual. About this. About Tesla. About Elon. About Netflix.

Dammit. About everything.

Thanks for being you man. The world needs more Toothsayers.

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07-09-2019 , 12:37 PM

#8914

Morishita System

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,391

Elon sounds like a genius until he talks about something within your subject matter expertise. That's when you realize he's full of **** on everything.

Quote

07-09-2019 , 12:43 PM

#8915

ToothSayer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 13,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by despacito

You're right. As usual. About this. About Tesla. About Elon. About Netflix.

Dammit. About everything.

You would retreat into sarcasm since you lack any kind of comeback given Musk's horrible history of predictions in the autonomous driving space.

I'm right about Musk being a fraud and Tesla's autonomous driving claims. The history is literally in this thread. Musk's history is a matter of public record. This must upset you a lot to find out that Musk is either a liar or an idiot when it comes to autonomous driving, far less accurate at predicting Tesla's autonomous driving trajectory than a random dude on the Internet. But those are the facts. Extrapolate accordingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mori****a System

Elon sounds like a genius until he talks about something within your subject matter expertise. That's when you realize he's full of **** on everything.

I disagree that he sounds like a genius. He sounds like a damaged bookworm to me. He's unable to string coherent sentences together which means he's unable to think ahead 2-3 steps. Which of course we see in the utter chaos in his companies, his micromanagement, his inability to delegate. I think it's an actual cognitive limitation that he has. He's probably quite creative and driven however.

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07-09-2019 , 12:47 PM

#8916

BooLoo

adept

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 945

Quote:

Originally Posted by despacito

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors...t_hw3_details/

that's just their chip they spent millions on instead of just buying it from the guys who already had one (which was stupid).

you were telling the story about the billions of 'autopilot' (lol) miles they got.
i asked you, if you know if they even collect all of that data (hint: they don't) or if it's even usable for solving vision (hint: it's not).

you can find posts on tmc about how much data is being send back to tesla (hint: it's very little).

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07-09-2019 , 12:55 PM

#8917

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooLoo

Thanks. Do you have a link?

I don't think we'll know if making the chip in-house was a mistake for a while. Outsourcing critical infra often = unacceptable business risk.

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07-09-2019 , 01:06 PM

#8918

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToothSayer

You would retreat into sarcasm since you lack any kind of comeback given Musk's horrible history of predictions in the autonomous driving space.

Missing a predicted timeline is not fraud and the past is not a reliable indicator of the future. Your track record of predictions is not as good as you say it is (but idc). Still waiting for you to show that US could not go 100% solar which you vehemently deny (even though it's super obvious it could). Not a credible statement.

People make mistakes and misjudgments all the time - and get predictions wrong - even the very best people. That doesn't = fraud.

Last edited by despacito; 07-09-2019 at 01:28 PM.

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07-09-2019 , 01:56 PM

#8919

MrFeelNothin

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 4,457

Why are people engaging with despacito?

You can win every argument with an astroturfer and still lose because their only goal is to get their propaganda out there into the ether.

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07-09-2019 , 02:48 PM

#8920

Xkf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 30,166

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xkf

https://www.theinformation.com/artic...autopilot-team

Close to 10% of autopilot software team quits

Dude who gave part of the autonomy day presentation in March fired by musk in early May hahaha

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07-09-2019 , 02:55 PM

#8921

despacito

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,369

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFeelNothin

Why are people engaging with despacito?

You can win every argument with an astroturfer and still lose because their only goal is to get their propaganda out there into the ether.

True. If you stay in your safe zone and avoid information that contradicts your unfounded opinions nothing can stop you.

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07-09-2019 , 06:38 PM

#8922

djevans

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 5,099

ALL IN ON NIO!!!!

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07-09-2019 , 08:23 PM

#8923

JKC

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 548

July very early delivery info showing low #s, but not as low as I was hoping.

Of course if past history is any indicator, the only month that really matters is the last one of the quarter.

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07-10-2019 , 12:53 AM

#8924

MrFeelNothin

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 4,457

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKC

July very early delivery info showing low #s, but not as low as I was hoping.

Of course if past history is any indicator, the only month that really matters is the last one of the quarter.

What could be lower than what we’re seeing in Texas, Colorado, LA, and Norway? Absolute zero?

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07-10-2019 , 04:53 AM

#8925

ToothSayer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 13,237

Yeah I don't get that at all. The numbers are basically zero. Worse than January this year. Add Spain and the Netherlands to that list of where we have reliable registration data and it's near zero.

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