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Old 06-19-2018, 04:31 PM   #126
ToothSayer
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

2.7% of GDP/year in outflows - plus at least that in IP/factory wealth loss and that again in debt payments - is not small or even relatively small.

No one favors tariffs, least of all Trump. He hates tariffs more than you do. All free traders do. You seem to like/want them in violation of economic theory, since you want to maintain status quo, and the status quo is massive tariffs by the Chinese.

It's the anti-free traders like you that want to keep letting China leverage large tariffs and all kinds of market barriers (basically forcing you to build factories in China and give the government half of your company and all your IP if you want to sell your products there), which is the absolute antithesis of free trade and is a pretty big global distortion of normal capitalist and free trade mechanisms.

The fake news media has really done your head in. I mean I don't blame you, you tend to trust constant repetition of the same BS from figures of authority no matter how ridiculous (which is also why religions stick), but this is such a black and white issue and Trump's position is so clear I find it a bit amusing that you all have it ass-backwards.

Why do you hate free trade, Pokerlogist?

Last edited by ToothSayer; 06-19-2018 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 06-19-2018, 05:54 PM   #127
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

Trump hates tariffs. At least the troll makes me laugh.
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:34 PM   #128
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
plus at least that in IP/factory wealth loss
where is the evidence?
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:41 PM   #129
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

I'm greatly understating it. Both Congress and the USTR have investigated it and come up with various figures, averaging $300-$600 billion/year.

Here's the former director of the NSA and the former Director of National Intelligence opining in the NYT:

China’s Intellectual Property Theft Must Stop

Quote:
Chinese companies, with the encouragement of official Chinese policy and often the active participation of government personnel, have been pillaging the intellectual property of American companies. All together, intellectual-property theft costs America up to $600 billion a year, the greatest transfer of wealth in history. China accounts for most of that loss.

Intellectual-property theft covers a wide spectrum: counterfeiting American fashion designs, pirating movies and video games, patent infringement and stealing proprietary technology and software. This assault saps economic growth, costs Americans jobs, weakens our military capability and undercuts a key American competitive advantage — innovation.

Chinese companies have stolen trade secrets from virtually every sector of the American economy: automobiles, auto tires, aviation, chemicals, consumer electronics, electronic trading, industrial software, biotech and pharmaceuticals. Last year U.S. Steel accused Chinese hackers of stealing trade secrets related to the production of lightweight steel, then turning them over to Chinese steel makers.
It's an absolute scandal that the fake news media is playing this up as Trump being the bad guy and being the protectionist. The exact opposite is the truth.

What they're managing to do is undermine a very very important fight that needs to happen and in fact should have happened under Obama when they could easily have been brought to heel and forced to play by the rules. America would be much richer, growth and wages higher, GFC probably would not have happened, without China being a giant parasite on US wealth.
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Old 06-22-2018, 02:51 AM   #130
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

So some guy whose job is based on deception says 600 billion and I should believe it?
No wonder Trump won
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Old 06-22-2018, 03:06 AM   #131
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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So some guy whose job is based on deception says 600 billion and I should believe it?
No wonder Trump won
He said "up to". And there is so much wrong with the post above I don't even know where to start.

Suffice to say that when the fake news media does a job on your head with repetitive fake news, just like religion, it's nearly impossible to escape it - because you'd have to implicitly admit that you're an utter fool who's been played and got reality 180 degrees wrong.

$300 billion as a reasonable estimate, possibly much higher, is broadly agreed by disparate sources - the US trade representative, congressional investigations, think tanks, national intelligence estimates.

Quote:
China's theft of intellectual property from American firms costs the US economy between $225 billion and $600 billion each year, according to the US Trade Representative. "Espionage and theft were part of this, but so were forced technology transfers or mandatory joint ventures as a condition for doing business in China," James Andrew Lewis, senior vice president at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, wrote in a blog post.
This isn't even debatable, nor is it partisan. This thread is a towering monument to the fake news media and how it's seriously warped American's view of reality.

You asked for a source. You got multiple. You're in the wrong and choose not to change your opinion. So be it.
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Old 06-23-2018, 03:29 AM   #132
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

I'm sure this is all nonsense planted by Trump:

https://www.axios.com/semiconductor-...1e56e93db.html

Quote:
Axios: Chipmakers fighting back against Chinese investigations, IP theft
Jun. 22, 2018 11:12 AM ET|By: Brandy Betz, SA News Editor

Axios reports on the recent Chinese government antitrust investigations into Micron (MU -2.8%), Samsung (OTC:SSNNF, OTC:SSNLF), and SK Hynix (OTC:HXSCF, OTC:HXSCL).

Chinese authorities claimed the investigations were tied to the rising prices in memory chips, which could put pressure on Chinese device makers operating with narrower margins.

US companies and government officials have questioned whether China’s investigations have a different industrial drive.

Key quote from a source familiar with the Micron investigation: ”They want access to the intellectual property. They need us to teach them how to do it. Once they have the industry, they want to push us out.”

President Xi Jinping has said he wants China to become the global leader in cutting-edge tech like semiconductors by 2025. The government has put forward nearly $115B to achieve this goal.

The Axios industry source says many industries have accepted Chinese IP theft but the difference with semiconductors “is we can still win because it’s really hard to do what we do.”

A potential solution is to move semi manufacturing elsewhere like Malaysia where the IP is safer, but the supply chain has deep ties in China.
Quote:
Micron's fight to protect its IP is not new. Other U.S. firms have run up against the same Chinese antitrust policies or regulations and have been forced to strike deals with Beijing.

The New York Times' Paul Mozur dove into the story of Chinese police raids on Micron's crown jewel — its chip design — in Taiwan, where the company keeps its trade secrets.
Qualcomm tangled with China: "To get back in Beijing’s good graces, the company agreed to lower its prices in China, promised to shift more of its high-end manufacturing to partners in China, and pledged to upgrade the country’s technology capabilities," the New York Times' David Barboza reports.
The same thing has happened to IBM and Apple and others.
"'I'm not sure who's fought China and won, just like I'm not sure who's fought a casino and won in the long run," says Bruce Mehlman, who was an assistant secretary of commerce for technology policy under the Bush administration and now lobbies for several tech companies.
Worth noting: Japan, South Korea and Taiwan all have thriving semiconductor industries, too. The difference is, these countries accept competition, whereas Beijing wants to give its national champions the advantage, Jimmy Goodrich, vice president of global policy at the Semiconductor Industry Association, says.
How ill read do you have to be, how utterly ignorant of the world, to disagree with me in this thread? It's simple uncontroversial facts vs fake news and delusion. There's a massive problem with China's trade practices and it's drained and is draining large amounts of wealth. The forcing of manufacturers to set up in China - when many didn't want to but were forced to for market access - has also made supply lines excessively dependent on China, a creepy communist dictatorship with expansionist aims who's deliberately targeting US economic decline.

This is something that should never have happened, and should be stopped, as painful as it now is and as painless as it would have been years ago. And the only way to stop is by forcing them - a decade of "talks" have made bled American wealth and made China's bargaining position to continue its cheating far stronger.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:01 PM   #133
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

IP theft is a problem and really the only real issue that should be addressed. But the costs are exaggerated and corporations take the risk or don't for a reason.
To push China to change its policies, you have to team up with your allies, who are also disadvantaged by this. Trump has done the opposite.
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Old 06-23-2018, 03:16 PM   #134
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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IP theft is a problem and really the only real issue that should be addressed.
Again this isn't true. There are a number of real issues:

1. Massive tariffs and underhanded targeted regulatory barriers on US goods going into China, effectively making their market a closed one, greatly hurting US wealth and guaranteeing a large ongoing deficit that enriches China.

2. Using this closed market to pressure companies to build factories in China and hand over half of their company to the Chinese government in order to gain tariff free access. This is an enormous wealth bleed and makes supply lines dependent on a hostile cheating communist country.

3. Control of resources like rare earths, where China forces companies to move factories from the US to China in order to access these commodities, again in violation of WTO standards

4. Targeted destruction of US industries by subsidizing the building of overcapacity in China.

There's more but that's a start, and the above are as large as IP theft. Claiming "IP theft is the only problem" is just ridiculous.

I get it, you don't like Trump, so everything he does must be bad and incompetent. This is the toddler level analysis we get from the fake news media, which you've swallowed, but it's not a rational position though.

Quote:
But the costs are exaggerated and corporations take the risk or don't for a reason.
Citation that the costs are exaggerated?

Companies take the risk because they often have no choice. Competitors who access the Chinese market will outgrow for a time and establish a foothold. Pay less for rare Earths. And China also runs a blackmail type system. whereby they threaten to target and steal from companies that don't comply.

The idea that this is "all fine because it's voluntary" is toddler level analysis.
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To push China to change its policies, you have to team up with your allies, who are also disadvantaged by this.
Which is being done. You don't read about much in the fake news media though. Also, Obama teamed up with allies on this. What did he achieve? A worsening o the situation and the continuation of the massive drain of wealth, factories and IP. At this point we know WTO doesn't work - it has no teeth and it's not set up for a determined large cheater. Look at the last decade and how well it's worked.
Quote:
Trump has done the opposite.
More fake news. Countries are sophisticated...they can cooperate on one thing while disagreeing on another. And they are cooperating on China.

The real problem is the media, strongly supporting the preferred narrative of the communist state hostile to the US economy in order to attack a president. The entire positioning of the media is "Trump is anti free trade! How dumb!" rather than "Trump is pro free trade and trying to end China's horrific anti-free-trade practices which harm the US".

Look at the utter ignorance in this thread bred by the fake news media. If the media presented this honestly (not even from a pro American; just honestly!) Trump would be able to exert a lot more pressure to force China to cease being anti free trade, and bring this to a close faster, as the Chinese would see no path to avoid changing their behavior.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 06-23-2018 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:29 AM   #135
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

back to the original question of ag tariffs and subsidies, the house of representatives just passed a 5 year farm bill which continues the standard, massive subsidies the farming industry receives. Trump will obviously not veto this. therefore his argument is all bluster and he isnt a free markets guy, just a standard protectionist.

https://agriculture.house.gov/upload...rt_summary.pdf
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:22 PM   #136
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

So because Obama didn't veto the ag bill, Obama was a standard protectionist? Seems like a weak argument. Even a veto would be overridden; Trump lacks the power to stop it.

Also, the farm subsidies amount to $17 billion and most of that is domestic consumption - 25% by value is exported so that's about $4 billion in export subsidies. Stacked up against 300% tariffs from Canada to protect their own dairy industry and their own farmer subsidies, stacked up against $500 billion in trade deficits, it seems a drop in the ocean and a red herring.

Your argument doesn't support your conclusion, at all.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:34 AM   #137
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
1. Massive tariffs and underhanded targeted regulatory barriers on US goods going into China, effectively making their market a closed one, greatly hurting US wealth and guaranteeing a large ongoing deficit that enriches China.
This is misleading: China's trade practices are pretty standard considering it's communist ruling government with tight control over businesses. China is a net exporter, mostly importing fuel or raw materials for manufacturing. This makes it a one sided market not even close to a closed market; They greatly encourage US companies to manufacture in China and many companies do and save money. I would argue this hurts China more than the US since they are exploiting both their people and natural resources while US companies save money.

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
2. Using this closed market to pressure companies to build factories in China and hand over half of their company to the Chinese government in order to gain tariff free access. This is an enormous wealth bleed and makes supply lines dependent on a hostile cheating communist country.
This is not accurate: Either forming a joint venture or using local representation to enter a foreign market is extremely common in many countries. This is not equivalent to "handing over half of their company"; A new entity is formed and a local partner get's a stake in that entity.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
3. Control of resources like rare earths, where China forces companies to move factories from the US to China in order to access these commodities, again in violation of WTO standards
This is false. China tried to use it's dominance in rare earth mining in 2010 to control global supply and it backfired the result was increased global production.

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
4. Targeted destruction of US industries by subsidizing the building of overcapacity in China.
This is more or less true, but not relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
There's more but that's a start, and the above are as large as IP theft. Claiming "IP theft is the only problem" is just ridiculous.

Citation that the costs are exaggerated?

Companies take the risk because they often have no choice. Competitors who access the Chinese market will outgrow for a time and establish a foothold. Pay less for rare Earths. And China also runs a blackmail type system. whereby they threaten to target and steal from companies that don't comply.
Here is the report:
http://ipcommission.org/report/IP_Co...pdate_2017.pdf

The low end is 225 billion and top end is 600 billion. The report explains why these difficult to estimate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
Which is being done. You don't read about much in the fake news media though. Also, Obama teamed up with allies on this. What did he achieve? A worsening o the situation and the continuation of the massive drain of wealth, factories and IP. At this point we know WTO doesn't work - it has no teeth and it's not set up for a determined large cheater. Look at the last decade and how well it's worked.

More fake news. Countries are sophisticated...they can cooperate on one thing while disagreeing on another. And they are cooperating on China.

The real problem is the media, strongly supporting the preferred narrative of the communist state hostile to the US economy in order to attack a president. The entire positioning of the media is "Trump is anti free trade! How dumb!" rather than "Trump is pro free trade and trying to end China's horrific anti-free-trade practices which harm the US".

Look at the utter ignorance in this thread bred by the fake news media. If the media presented this honestly (not even from a pro American; just honestly!) Trump would be able to exert a lot more pressure to force China to cease being anti free trade, and bring this to a close faster, as the Chinese would see no path to avoid changing their behavior.
What the Obama administration and allies did is form global trade alliances (TTIP, TPP, TISA) that would subvert China, Russia and others while meeting the US demand for low cost imports and raw material exports.

What you are arguing is that the US should regulate its companies more like communist China does so we can gain a trade advantage over them.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:00 PM   #138
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

Everything you write is basically you first saying it's not accurate and then agreeing with me.

Quote:
What the Obama administration and allies did is form global trade alliances (TTIP, TPP, TISA) that would subvert China, Russia and others while meeting the US demand for low cost imports and raw material exports.
And how well did that work in reducing the trade deficit, or stopping IP theft (hint: it didn't at all, and the US continued to bleed wealth like crazy).
Quote:
What you are arguing is that the US should regulate its companies more like communist China does so we can gain a trade advantage over them.
I'm not arguing anything of the sort. I'm arguing that China, like a psychopath, has no interest in agreements and playing by the rules, cannot be talked to or negotiated with, and needs to be forced painfully to abide by its WTO obligations and respect international norms. There is 15 years of evidence backing up this view.

I'm not suggesting any change to how US companies do business. US companies in fact broadly want China brought to heel.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 06-25-2018 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:52 PM   #139
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
Everything you write is basically you first saying it's not accurate and then agreeing with me.
I see. You equate misinformation, misleading and false statements to accurate statements. No wonder you think Trump is credible.

We're talking about this guy:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/03/1...ace-force.html
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:27 PM   #140
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

Toothsayer is good in that he creates a lot of insightful discussion, he is capable of arguing brilliantly in clear cut black/white cases where almost any idiot can see the right answer. He is very convincing and has a way with words, that being said I highly disagree with most of his statements and do not think he has a decent grasp on complicated situations. That won't stop him from voicing his uninformed opinion and doing it in a convincing fashion.
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Old 06-27-2018, 01:35 AM   #141
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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Originally Posted by gammaraise View Post
I see. You equate misinformation, misleading and false statements to accurate statements. No wonder you think Trump is credible.

We're talking about this guy:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/03/1...ace-force.html
No, your statements are self evidently ridiculous; you read like a propagandist, one of the millions of paid Chinese sockpuppets. You're not of course, just saying that's what you read like as there's little evidence or rationality in your posts and they're spun as hard as possible toward China apology when the facts and morality are very clear. To go through them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gammaraise View Post
Quote:
1. Massive tariffs and underhanded targeted regulatory barriers on US goods going into China, effectively making their market a closed one, greatly hurting US wealth and guaranteeing a large ongoing deficit that enriches China.
This is misleading: China's trade practices are pretty standard considering it's communist ruling government with tight control over businesses.
Wait, what? So because it's a communist government controlling the economy, they get a pass? And no, no other communist government that I know of acts like this, massively cheating in world trade. Name one?

Quote:
China is a net exporter, mostly importing fuel or raw materials for manufacturing. This makes it a one sided market not even close to a closed market;
But why are they a net exporter? Because:

- They break trade agreements to force companies to create local factories
- They make it hard to impossible for targeted foreign made good to get into the country, despite strong local demand.

This is massive cheating and exploitation of the free trade system they agreed to follow a condition of joining the WTO.

Quote:
They greatly encourage US companies to manufacture in China and many companies do and save money. I would argue this hurts China more than the US since they are exploiting both their people and natural resources while US companies save money.
This is not a take agreed to by US businesses, who quietly (quietly because they fear Chinese backlash for speaking out) lobbied a deaf/incompetent Obama to do more to curtail China's forced transfers. Long term, handing over your IP and training the Chinese is suicide to your business.

Quote:
This is not accurate: Either forming a joint venture or using local representation to enter a foreign market is extremely common in many countries. This is not equivalent to "handing over half of their company"; A new entity is formed and a local partner get's a stake in that entity.
A forced joint venture where you hand over 50% of control, plus handing over all your IP to the government, is "extremely common" in other countries in order to access the market under free trade agreements? You're a stone cold liar dude. This was very well spun by the way. Why the extreme China apology?

Quote:
This is false. China tried to use it's dominance in rare earth mining in 2010 to control global supply and it backfired the result was increased global production.
China still controls most of the supply and use of rare Earths. And they use it in exactly the way I say. It's not as bad since losing the WTO case, but there's still a strong advantage for manufacturers moving to China for easier rare access. Recently, they're buying up rare Earth mines to continue their global control of the resource.

Quote:
Quote:
4. Targeted destruction of US industries by subsidizing the building of overcapacity in China.
This is more or less true, but not relevant.
Massive anti-free-trade practices "aren't relevant"??? They're part of the trade imbalance, they're basically predatory monopolistic behavior underwritten by a communist state, to destroy US industry. It's as relevant as it gets to a trade dispute.


Quote:
Here is the report:
http://ipcommission.org/report/IP_Co...pdate_2017.pdf

The low end is 225 billion and top end is 600 billion. The report explains why these difficult to estimate.
Right, so I said there are a range of estimates that average $300 billion/year in IP (i.e. as large as the trade deficit). Thank you for helping educate chytry on this, who balked at this number.

Quote:
What the Obama administration and allies did is form global trade alliances (TTIP, TPP, TISA) that would subvert China, Russia and others while meeting the US demand for low cost imports and raw material exports.
Yes. And they didn't work in reducing the level of predatory, parasitic cheating by China that's draining US wealth.

Quote:
What you are arguing is that the US should regulate its companies more like communist China does so we can gain a trade advantage over them.
I'm not arguing anything of the sort. I'm arguing that US needs to bend China's am with force until they start abiding by WTO rules they agreed to as a condition of signing up. China merely opening up their market to foreign goods, and removing all barriers, would be sufficient. Basically following their WTO commitments. Failing to do that, pain should be applied. China is a basically a psychopathic government who will cheat, steal and lie however they can they to keep their 1993 Nazi-level nation and military building project going and reduce US powe. They are not a responsible global actor and they won't voluntarily abide by agreements.

Trump is busy building an international coalition on this issue. You won't read about it in the fake news media because it's contrary to their narrative, but here's the Phnom Penh Post.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 06-27-2018 at 01:44 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:29 AM   #142
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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So because Obama didn't veto the ag bill, Obama was a standard protectionist? Seems like a weak argument. Even a veto would be overridden; Trump lacks the power to stop it.

Also, the farm subsidies amount to $17 billion and most of that is domestic consumption - 25% by value is exported so that's about $4 billion in export subsidies. Stacked up against 300% tariffs from Canada to protect their own dairy industry and their own farmer subsidies, stacked up against $500 billion in trade deficits, it seems a drop in the ocean and a red herring.

Your argument doesn't support your conclusion, at all.
Im replying to the poster who said trump wants to do away with all subsidies and tariffs and would get rid of the USAs. Thats clearly not true, but if it his here is Trumps chance to show it.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:34 AM   #143
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

Vetoing the farm bill isn't viable, so I don't think that's a reasonable take.

Some trading relevant trade related news this morning. According to Mnuchin just on CNBC:

Quote:
CFIUS will be enhanced with pending legislation.
Certain countries will get a highlighted review; not singling out China.
Does not expect any significant economic impact from the decision.
Decision had unanimous support within the White House.
As soon as CFIUS legislation passes Congress (passed House last night -- see 6:19) -- they will initiate it.* Expects legislation to pass quickly.* If it doesn't pass, President will use executive authority to accomplish this.
Expecting a big Q2 GDP number, but has no advance notice of what the number will be; cites Atlanta Fed estimates.
Will publish new regulations on CFIUS.
A US company considering a joint venture with China could see deal blocked if they are transferring critical technology; notes this is part of House bill that passed 400-2 last night.
Market is loving this this morning; went from quite negative back into the green.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 06-27-2018 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:59 PM   #144
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

IP belongs to shareholders unless it was heavily subsidized.

Also China is taking further steps to protect IP:
http://m.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/a...small-platform
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Old 06-28-2018, 11:32 AM   #145
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

this is really lazy and only moderately related to thread.....

why is harley davidson thinking of moving production offshore? i see the reason given as trade war.

i would assume that the majority of HD's sales are in the USA, so they are moving production from the USA to avoid tariffs?.. that makes no sense but my assumptions and reading of situation may be way off.

thx advance
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Old 06-28-2018, 11:35 AM   #146
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

ToothSayer, great knowledge and comments....

this is semi-grunch on your thoughts... but if china and dishonest/immoral behaviour is ultimately the problem, why is trump saber-ratting to so many friendly countries over tariffs?

note: i may be confusing your ideas and trump's. or i may have not have described your position correctly.

i do think the low education, highish pay jobs have disappeared to a bunch of areas like china, mexico, "right to work" states..... but the big one i've mentioned before is automation. i don't see trump doing anything here. no idea though what could/should be done about it anyway.
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:23 PM   #147
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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Originally Posted by rivercitybirdie View Post
this is really lazy and only moderately related to thread.....

why is harley davidson thinking of moving production offshore? i see the reason given as trade war.

i would assume that the majority of HD's sales are in the USA, so they are moving production from the USA to avoid tariffs?.. that makes no sense but my assumptions and reading of situation may be way off.

thx advance
They weren't going to move all production offshore, just probably the exports. Also, input costs would probably go way down as domestic steel and such is too expensive
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:55 PM   #148
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
I am uninformed on the topic and have a question I've never seen answered: What is being used to pay for the trade deficit? IOW, is it that American consumers are paying out of their incomes or is it that Americans are selling assets to pay for it?
Well there is a notion out there that $US going off shore will eventually find their way back to the USA in terms of investment in the USA among other things. Might be interesting to know how many Chinese companies have established themselves in the USA and how USA citizens they employ. How much of the USA govt debt does China own anyway? I forget.

Milton Friedman on trade deficits:
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In the international trade area, the language is almost always about how we must export, and what’s really good is an industry that produces exports. And if we buy from abroad and import, that’s bad. But surely that’s upside-down. What we send abroad we can’t eat, we can’t wear, we can’t use for our houses. The goods and services we send abroad, are goods and services not available to us. On the other hand, the goods and services we import, they provide us with TV sets we can watch, automobiles we can drive, with all sorts of nice things for us to use. The gain from foreign trade is what we import. What we export is the cost of getting those imports. And the proper objective for a nation as Adam Smith put it, is to arrange things, so we get as large a volume of imports as possible, for as small a volume of exports as possible.
This carries over to the terminology we use. When people talk about a favorable balance of trade, what is that term taken to mean? It’s taken to mean that we export more than we import. But from the point of view of our well-being, that’s an unfavorable balance. That means we’re sending out more goods and getting fewer in. Each of you in your private household would know better than that. You don’t regard it as a favorable balance when you have to send out more goods to get less coming in. It’s favorable when you can get more by sending out less.

Last edited by adios; 06-29-2018 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 07-17-2018, 02:14 AM   #149
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

I used to think if china wanted to be our slaves then why not let them? Look at our standard of living vs. theirs. We basically export paper IOU's to them and in return get real goods at rock bottom prices. They're like the kid down the road who mows my lawn, weed eats, trims the shrubs, cleans my inground pool and jacuzzi, washes and waxes both of my Mercedes and I give him a couple bucks and a glass of water.Then he eagerly shows up again next week to do the same.

But now Im starting to rethink my previous beliefs. Its far too simplistic of a way to look at things. Toothsayer and Warren Buffet make some convincing points....

Last edited by Black Hat; 07-17-2018 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 07-17-2018, 02:04 PM   #150
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Re: Is Trump accurate in saying we're being fleeced on trade by other countries?

Let's get clear on Warren Buffet's current view on Rump's self-destructive US tariffs. Buffets quotes of May, 2018:

"We both may do things that are mildly foolish from time to time," the Berkshire Hathaway CEO said.
Buffett also insisted the trade deficit, which Trump has consistently bemoaned, is not really a problem for the US.
"When you think about it, it's really not the worst thing in the world for someone to send you things you want and you hand them a piece of paper," Buffett said.

http://www.businessinsider.com/warre...tension-2018-5


What was brought up earlier this thread was an old Buffet article from 2002 when the world situation was quite different, and still there he did not advocate those idiotic self-destructive US tariffs. China will never negotiate with someone that they and the rest of world perceive as a bungling fool.


Who is it that is fleecing the average American citizen the most?: Rump and his Republican cucks, thats who. There are massive problems for average americans that include the destruction of healthcare, destruction of social security, low wage jobs, high costs of education, and an inflated Federal deficit after tax cuts for the ultra-rich, that should be addressed but they are not because of these "rumpholes". Instead the buffoon is running around the world making enemies of our democratic friends and praising dictators.
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