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Old 05-21-2017, 03:15 PM   #26
rand
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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Originally Posted by Madian View Post
So basically this is so hard to learn and make it "profitable" that if you're not a math genius you should give up?

Is this what you people are saying?

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No, you really don't have to be a math genius. But you should be reasonably intelligent.

Currency is just really hard to trade for all kinds of reasons. Individuals do it profitably but it is not the place to learn IMO.

I think discipline, hard work, leak finding, iterative learning, etc., are as if not more important than intelligence. But you have to have a certain level of intelligence.
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:34 PM   #27
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

And where one would starts?

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Old 05-22-2017, 04:51 PM   #28
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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And where one would starts?

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I said corn futures in the post before yours. But first I would read a lot. I would read this forum (not really or not just BFI, I mean HSNL and HSPLO, etc.).

I would play poker and manage a bankroll. Then I would do some math, be sure that I am properly capitalized and can afford to loose.

Then I would trade corn futures every day for a couple of months. Initially 1 lots for a week or two and flat every day. Then you can buy two, cover your risk with one, let one run, etc. Start swing strading, etc.

Here is a good TA book: https://www.amazon.com/Technical-Ana...ds=john+murphy

Also, despite the fact that I said I would do this everyday, I would not tell anyone to play poker or trade professionally (if they are just starting out, or unless they are employed to trade).

I would tell people just starting out to build something. Basically being an entrepreneur first is the way to go IMO.
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:19 PM   #29
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

I agree with you Rand, in that there are better markets to start in. But it's really not to be done with any less than $10k in starting capital, correct? I suppose a little less if you're trading mini corn contracts.

I started this in the spirit of trading off a very small account. I know a lot of people consider that a fool's errand. I think it has some value in that you get to experience actual trading even if you are on a budget or don't have means to save up in the moment. I think this limits you to forex or penny stocks (neither of which are going to be ideal).
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:23 PM   #30
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

You guys think you have an edge in forex and ****ing corn futures. That's hilarious. You could throw a dart at a dartboard of tradable instruments and guarantee hitting higher EV.

I'm starting to think Rand is a comic genius. Perhaps a stinkypete alter ego.
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:04 PM   #31
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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You guys think you have an edge in forex and ****ing corn futures. That's hilarious. You could throw a dart at a dartboard of tradable instruments and guarantee hitting higher EV.

I'm starting to think Rand is a comic genius. Perhaps a stinkypete alter ego.
At no point did anyone claim to have an edge in anything, forex or commodities. FFS, I already pointed out one person's asinine assumptions. What happened to you and Pinkmann to make the both of you this crass? I'm starting to think maybe Pinkmann is your alter-ego.
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:22 PM   #32
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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At no point did anyone claim to have an edge in anything, forex or commodities.
So you're trading forex even though you don't have an edge? If that's the case, why don't you go to a roulette table and pick a 4-way? It's fast, simple, and you can move on and do something useful with your time. Education in a desired skill, for example, is worth about $1 million by the time you hit fifty. With ultra low variance.

Implicit in what you're doing in the OP is the belief that you have an edge. If you didn't believe that you'd be gambling, and trading would have to be the most boring, drawn out form of gambling there is.
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FFS, I already pointed out one person's asinine assumptions. What happened to you and Pinkmann to make the both of you this crass? I'm starting to think maybe Pinkmann is your alter-ego.
The level of absurdity in this thread is high, that's all. Forex and ****ing corn futures for beginners.
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:41 PM   #33
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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So you're trading forex even though you don't have an edge? If that's the case, why don't you go to a roulette table and pick a 4-way? It's fast, simple, and you can move on and do something useful with your time. Education in a desired skill, for example, is worth about $1 million by the time you hit fifty. With ultra low variance.

Implicit in what you're doing in the OP is the belief that you have an edge. If you didn't believe that you'd be gambling, and trading would have to be the most boring, drawn out form of gambling there is.

The level of absurdity in this thread is high, that's all. Forex and ****ing corn futures for beginners.
What's absurd (to me at least) is the notion around here that you have to have some clearly defined, quantitative edge to even begin trading. I don't think clear edges exist for the vast majority of beginning traders. I think that's something that is developed over time with trial & error. Paper trading is only so useful - your trading behavior when the stakes are non-existent will be quite different than when otherwise... So where does that leave the beginning trader?
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:23 PM   #34
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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Originally Posted by CandyKreep View Post
What's absurd (to me at least) is the notion around here that you have to have some clearly defined, quantitative edge to even begin trading. I don't think clear edges exist for the vast majority of beginning traders. I think that's something that is developed over time with trial & error. Paper trading is only so useful - your trading behavior when the stakes are non-existent will be quite different than when otherwise... So where does that leave the beginning trader?
To do otherwise would just be lighting money on fire.

At the very least, you ought to have a thesis as to why you think you can make money trading FX. And when you are wrong, at least you would've hopefully learned something from lighting your money on fire.

What beggars belief (and why people are mocking you) is that you choose to make your first attempt in FX, which is the most unforgiving and biggest black hole of sucker money you could've possibly chosen.
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:50 PM   #35
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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At the very least, you ought to have a thesis as to why you think you can make money trading FX. And when you are wrong, at least you would've hopefully learned something from lighting your money on fire.
As stated earlier in this thread, I did demo trade my current approach for a few months and kept the account in the black. Hardly a major brag, and it will be tough to replicate, but it's not like I'm just jumping in to it completely green, which seems to be what everyone is assuming.

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What beggars belief (and why people are mocking you) is that you choose to make your first attempt in FX, which is the most unforgiving and biggest black hole of sucker money you could've possibly chosen.
The goal (admittedly a very difficult one) was to attempt to profitably trade a $100 account. Name me any other market other than FX where you can even open an account for that much... ? If you choose to trade an account of that small a size, FX is pretty much the only viable option.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:18 AM   #36
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

Put me in the pro-TA camp. Even a basic understanding is so important, yet often so lacking.
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:16 AM   #37
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

OP, myself and probably a lot of people in here are being harsh because they have been in your shoes before.

If you must, go and trade your small account the way you want. After a few days/weeks you will realize you don't have an edge and you will get bored of trying. I'm not saying I think this will happen, I know its a 100% certainty.

Do yourself a favor and watch this video,
https://youtu.be/VtpfscXOWWs?t=125
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:48 AM   #38
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

Calm down guys, he's trading with $100 account. Most people spend that on a weekend lol.

As long OP keeps expectations in check (i.e. not aiming for $1k any time soon) and doesn't move up to where they respect his raises, I think he should continue. It's a very cheap way to learn (how to trade, or that trading isn't for him).

My 2 cents is to dump all the TA bs. Just look at a high timeframe candle/bar chart.
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Old 05-23-2017, 06:17 AM   #39
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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Originally Posted by CandyKreep View Post
The goal (admittedly a very difficult one) was to attempt to profitably trade a $100 account. Name me any other market other than FX where you can even open an account for that much... ? If you choose to trade an account of that small a size, FX is pretty much the only viable option.
I guess I don't get the point. What is it you want?

- To make money? This is the worst way possible with a $100 stack. You're far better off mowing lawns or playing $2NL.
- To learn trading? Everything you learn will be worthless, since FX isn't where the edge is
- To take a shot at growing your bankroll to where you can trade something more profitable? Again, the worst way possible.
- To prove that one can profitably trade a $100 forex account? WTF is the point of that? It's related to precisely nothing and gives you zero skills you can use and proves absolutely nothing since you won't reach statistical significance on your random walk for a long time.

This just seems bizarre to me, an extraordinary waste of time and energy. You may as well watch paint dry, about as educational, profitable and entertaining.
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:17 AM   #40
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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Originally Posted by :::grimReaper::: View Post
My 2 cents is to dump all the TA bs. Just look at a high timeframe candle/bar chart.
Looking at a chart is TA. If you think TA is bs there is no reason to look at a chart. And a candle? That is even more refined TA
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:21 AM   #41
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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I guess I don't get the point. What is it you want?
- To learn trading? Everything you learn will be worthless, since FX isn't where the edge is
The rest of your points were valid. This one was not. There is plenty to be learned.

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Originally Posted by :::grimReaper::: View Post
Calm down guys, he's trading with $100 account. Most people spend that on a weekend lol.

As long OP keeps expectations in check (i.e. not aiming for $1k any time soon) and doesn't move up to where they respect his raises, I think he should continue. It's a very cheap way to learn (how to trade, or that trading isn't for him.
This X 1000

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Old 05-23-2017, 09:59 AM   #42
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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Do yourself a favor and watch this video,
https://youtu.be/VtpfscXOWWs?t=125
I've seen this before. I think posted on either Forex Factory or Baby Pips forum... I'd say conscious incompetence sums up where I am right now.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:20 AM   #43
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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Originally Posted by CandyKreep View Post
The rest of your points were valid. This one was not. There is plenty to be learned.
like what? that fees are a problem? (this is why the corn suggestion is a joke. the unreduced fees are crippling)

while I agree with the 'who cares, it's $100' sentiment, I don't know what you're going to learn dinging around an FX account. I guess you might discover some latent weakness to tilt or that you really don't like sitting at a desk all day

Last edited by GBP04; 05-23-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:47 AM   #44
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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Originally Posted by CandyKreep View Post
The rest of your points were valid. This one was not. There is plenty to be learned.
you have several tick-by-tick manual trading simulators... (that you can speed up)*

this is the same as your 100 USD live trading, with the benefit of you trading 1 month in 1 day pretty much... -> why this live trad. is pointless


*just assume 1x spread execution slip on top of the spread and if you can clear that all cool from there (exc. news)
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:51 AM   #45
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

It's not about the money - no one cares about that. It's about the wasted time. He could pick anything he liked, and no matter his goals or personality, and it would be a much better use of his time than trying to learn forex.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:22 PM   #46
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

I don't really understand why people are harping on the time thing. The other benefit to trading daily charts, besides not overtrading, is that you're not glued to a computer screen for hours on end looking for setups. There's really no massive time commitment like there would be if I was trying to trade on the lower timeframes. If I was doing this by trying to scalp 5 minute candles, I would understand the uproar about wasted time as that would require a far more substantial commitment.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:25 PM   #47
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

Imagine it's 2005 (when online NLH was crazy juicy) and you want to learn to play real money checkers against experts for microstakes because you only have $100.

Everyone would be going "wtf is wrong with you, why would you waste your time with something like that??"

That's what's going on here.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:49 PM   #48
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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Imagine it's 2005 (when online NLH was crazy juicy) and you want to learn to play real money checkers against experts for microstakes because you only have $100.

Everyone would be going "wtf is wrong with you, why would you waste your time with something like that??"

That's what's going on here.
You're not actually claiming there's a financial market out there equivalent to Party Poker glory days that a micro-trader can access??

What would you do with <$500 trading capital? Should I just be putting it away to save up more while paper trading equity markets in the hopes that after doing that for a year or so I will have the capital/confidence to have some kind of a shot?
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:21 PM   #49
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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You're not actually claiming there's a financial market out there equivalent to Party Poker glory days that a micro-trader can access??
In terms of return on bankroll for a highly intelligent/skilled person, the markets are juicier than poker has ever been. For the average chump, no.

Quote:
What would you do with <$500 trading capital?
Buy a lawnmower. Start mowing people's lawns. I'm dead serious. You should get a job until your potential return on job is better than your potential trading return.

The correct trading decision for someone with $100 is to sell their labor until they have a lot more than $100. It's not even close. If you can't make the correct decision here, where it's clear cut with even a little common sense, how are you going to make it in trading, where the correct decision is far harder to spot?

You're not going to learn anything trading $100. At best you fill your mind up with crap, and you learn to trade something that is nothing like equities and that you'll move away from when you have more money. More likely, you start seeing beatable patterns that are just confirmation bias run amok, and start putting more money in, think you're onto something, wasting your time and energy on a -EV pursuit in every way.

There are no psychological skills you'll learn trading $100. It's a different world putting $20 down, or $20K.
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Should I just be putting it away to save up more while paper trading equity markets in the hopes that after doing that for a year or so I will have the capital/confidence to have some kind of a shot?
For the average person, anything you do with $500 in the investing space is worthless. If you have an options account and a good ability/interest to analyze systems (say, you have a physics or engineering degree), then maybe you have something of a shot at turning $500 into a lot more.

But the fact that you're picking forex put the priors fairly high that you're not one of those people. Even if you do realize how bad forex is to trade.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 05-23-2017 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:36 PM   #50
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Re: "Micro-stakes" trading

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You guys think you have an edge in forex and ****ing corn futures. That's hilarious. You could throw a dart at a dartboard of tradable instruments and guarantee hitting higher EV.

I'm starting to think Rand is a genius. Perhaps a stinkypete alter ego.
There, FTFY.

For the sake of clarity. I am not really suggesting anyone start trading. And I am even less suggesting that they would have an edge in the corn market.

I am talking about the "personalities" of the markets. Corn is more conducive to learning. It has shallower and longer trends.

What I am saying is if you are going to start, "personality*" wise, newbies should trade corn and not oil or silver.

*of the market, not the newbie
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