Where are you at in terms of the 100K month goal?

What else are you including in that number besides RE income, if anything.

Well it is hard to say where I am. I used to think of number of doors as the goal. 100 doors (100 units paying rent)
but that went out the window when I swapped part ownership of a 97 unit complex to a single warehouse and some office space.
in that equation 97 residential doors = 1 industrial+1 commercial so the measurement by doors no longer worked.
In a similar fashion, I recently sold a warehouse and a second warehouse is under contract for sale.
The rental income dropped by $16k/month but in its place I am sitting on a pile of cash in 1y term cashable GIC's at 5%.
I do not measure that because the payout with interest does not show up monthly. You just get a pile of cash when
at the end of 1y or when you cash out.
I think I mentioned an alternate version in #13 where a great replacement goal would be to get to 100M net worth.
I estimate under the current conditions a 50M net worth invested mostly in Real Estate would generate that 100k per month net income.

Lastly there is a tradeoff in capital appreciation vs. cashflow.
I live in a city where property investment that will produce positive monthly income is not possible.
900k USD will buy an empty lot in my city with $0 cashflow.
In most cities, there is a tradeoff of cashflow for appreciation. If you invest in a suburb, of a city, you will get
more cashflow and less appreciation. If you bought the same unit in a growing (ie. not San Francisco) city center, you would likely get
very little cashflow and much more appreciation over time. I have a mix of both locations as well as adding commercial and industrial to the residential mix.
For the low cash flow properties, the capital appreciation is only realized when you sell the property.
If I wanted to really hit that goal of 100k/m I would only be investing in 0% appreciation high cashflow places like Detroit.
The mix protects against a targeted drop in one area of the economy.
ie. it helps to spread the risk. When office values are way down because of covid, warehouse space became really high in demand.

I would estimate i am at 7/50 with a good portion of the 7 sitting in cash, waiting to buy property at a discount.
By cashflow only, I am collecting under $10k/m in rent now.
Not sure if that helps, but that is how I think of it.

The problem with property as an investment is properties only have a useful life off about 70 years. If you take an extreme example, any property you own will be rubble 500 years from now.

The real estate agents and the builders make the money on property. If the properties were excellent investments the banks and the builders would just keep them and rent them out themselves.

Stocks are better investments, as depreciation is already subtracted, from the net profit line.

500 years from now Coca Cola will still be here, paying dividends, their factories will be in tip top shape and it will be far more profitable. You're property will be bulldozed to the ground.

Thank you Maximus for the comment/thesis. One of the key reasons that I post here is to allow anyone and everyone to comment and tell me where I am wrong in my thinking and make me defend my thinking and actions OR have to reconsider my thinking. I hope you come back with a much more solid argument why RE is a bad investment in comparison to Equities and Smash on the idea with a much bigger hammer.
Let me help you out by trying to smash on my plans by Taking your position.
I will break my reply into 3 sections. 1) Why RE is a bad investment, (this post) 2) Why Equities are good investments, 3) why RE is a good investment (for some)
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‘stocks are better investments’ Definitely true for most investors, but not for all and not for the reason(s) you state.
Here are a few Negatives for Real Estate Investments in no particular order:

1) High barrier (down payment) to entry. I have several small properties (under 100k) that generate 7-800/per month and have owned them for over 10 years. One or two of the tenants are older (mid went from mid 40’s to 50’s and working) If they could see that they were staying, they could have saved up for 2 years and had a down payment and made a mortgage payment instead of a rent payment for the last 8 years and be close to owning the properties outright today. Their problem is that they cannot see past their next paycheque.

2) Risk of ruin. On an Investment property, If you need to collect rent to pay your mortgage, one bad tenant or professional squatter can stop you from collecting rent for a year And cause you to have to pay 5k for legal and Bailiff fees. IF (mortgage is underwater) and you are forced to sell at a bad time in the real estate cycle your entire investment can go to 0. You can get downgraded to a bad credit rating if it was a bank foreclosure and/or property tax was still owing. This compounds the problem as lower credit rating individuals pay higher interest rates on the same loan amount because the bank considers them a higher risk of non-payment.

3) Maintenance and repairs are required annually on the property. You should have CapX funds to deal with this, but most first time investors think that the tenants will love and take care of your property for you…. Sorry NO! Hot water tanks, dishwashers, fridges do wear out and fail over time.

4) Requires a minimum level of disagreeableness. If you are starting out and have the personality type that would dread firing a co-worker, you would also likely dread evicting a tenant. You can have professionals do it, but it costs way more. Sometimes you have to fight with a tenant when they complain the toilet is not working and you send a plumber. The plumber’s report comes back and says a hair clip was jammed in the drain line. A hair clip is not wear and tear. The plumber’s fee is the tenant’s responsibility.

5) Illiquid nature of Real estate. Need cash for an emergency? Selling a property may take 3-6 months. Even at the best of times, you cannot get that number under 2 months unless you are buying with cash and no subjects. (subject to inspection/financing etc.) Banks/Lawyers/building inspectors/Title companies need time to process. Banks also need extra time to assess you as a risk and the value of the property.

6) Transaction costs rules out quick gains. Your comment on real estate agents making money on deals is legitimate. If you are planning to hold the building for less than say 10 years, profit on a normal property can be eaten by the bank/legal/assessor/inspector/realtor/transfer tax fees on both buying AND selling the property. You have 0% chance of gaining 20% on your investment in under a year. (as opposed to an individual stock.)

7) Requires lots of self study and advanced planning. You need to think about your personal and investment needs. This statement can mean a lot of things. Personally because of the illiquid nature of RE, if you can foresee that you will need large amounts of money in the future, say to pay for a car/wedding/kid’s university, you may need alternate sources of funds.
Locationally, you also want to have a good Idea (need to study and plan) that you are investing in a place that is growing and will have a reasonable chance of capital appreciation. Ie. Invest in a location where jobs are moving like Texas and not California. On a more local note, if your city is planning a transit stop or new bridge to improve traffic in that area or a new ‘development zone/revitalization zone’ that gives the investor certain privileges or tax exemptions. I am a big believer in ‘free infrastructure’ plays. Ie. The city has a better idea of where transit demand is high and will forecast for you where the growth in the city is going to be.

8) It takes patience even when things are good. When the city starts building a new transit stop at location X and you decide to buy a condo in the tower right at that location, you will have to suffer during the construction and 100% guaranteed protests and delays that come with such infrastructure development before you see that large lift in property prices when new retail restaurants and services move in to take advantage of the new transit. 400yards/meters is a good gauge of where to buy and what gets a lift. That is roughly a 3-5 minute walk to transit.

9) Capital gains are taxed all in one year. Generally this leads to a maximum tax in the year that you sell a property.

10) Can be hit by natural disasters and uninsurable events. Terrorism or vandalism by vexatious tenants are not insurable and will be money right out of your pocket. In some places where you can buy insurance vs. large natural disasters, your premium could jump as much as 100% after such an event. Think of Florida hurricanes and the threat of insurance companies to pull out entirely from the state if they are not allowed (by law) to raise insurance premiums by market rates.

11) You can do everything right and still have your property value decrease. Having the wrong neighbors is a good example. (don’t cut their grass/rake leaves/park wrecked vehicles on their lot/neighbor house becomes a drug house or is occupied by gang members)

I am sure there are more, but that is what I came up with this morning. I also limited myself to buying single family homes or Condos. There is a whole separate list of negatives I have for Limited Partnerships and Syndications where you own less than 100% of a property.

Thanks for the detailed responses Mindflayer.

Getting into RE investing / landlord status is something I’m looking at trying to do as a 3-5 year goal, so it’s informative to hear the mindset of someone in that game.

Any advice on how to go about finding a good property manager for SFH in suburban areas? My dad owns two homes outright in CA and has been been doing all the landlord/ maintenance stuff himself for 20+ years but is looking to just straight up retire soon. Wants either my sister or me to move back and take care of it for him, but don’t think either of us are up for it.

If you are in the US, I would start with Bigger Pockets and start asking questions there. It is a site = all things real estate.
get an account and start asking questions. if you are serious, post at least one question every few days. If you ask here, I can only give you one opinion and mine has a Canadian Tilt to it.
Most of my holdings are in Canada and only a few in the US. Ie. we do not have things like 1030 Exchanges to delay Capital Gains in Canada. So when you get down to the nitty gritty and state specific laws, you need a state specific answer. Bigger Pockets is your first place to ask.

Here is a more targeted page for you on Property Managers.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/p...B%20Premium%5D

I am also sure you can do a keyword search for Property Managers and find the last 10 articles or a couple of discussions on what to look for in a PM.
I used to work for a PM company called Associa. They are HQ in Dallas Tx. and have offices all over the US. They have 7 offices in CA.
Pleasanton, Stockton, Redding, Roseville, Los Gatos and 2 in San Francisco. Not the best, but not the worst. Depends on who they assign to your property.

500 years from now Coca Cola will not exist. Of the many 1000's that have been started and closed, the only companies in the +300year old range that I can think of are the Hudson Bay Company (trading in North American furs) and Lloyds (insurance)

Part 2. Why Stocks are better investments.

In no particular order

1) Low barrier to entry. If you have a spare $1k you can buy your favourite stock. The ‘friction’ to buy your sock is now as low as ? $7 per transaction. When I first started investing, you had to have a brokerage account, call your broker, and place an order, they would have runners on the floor to execute your trade! Minimum cost to make a trade was $200 + a per stock certificate fee, about another 2-3% of the stocks you were buying.
2) You can set an exact amount to offset capital gains and losses. Have some Enron stock that went to $0 and lost $20k in your portfolio? You can offset the losses with an exact amount of sales in a stock that totals $20k in gains. = 0 Tax on your gains in that year.
3) You can spread your capital gains over a period of time to minimize the tax. You bought some Nvidia stock? You can go on vacation for a year or two and sell just enough stock to replace your income for a year and pay minimal (capital gains) tax.
4) Equities are liquid. Need cash for X? Equities are not part of M1, M2 but are ‘near cash’ and can easily be converted into Cash when needed.
5) Long term good returns (long run +-7% minus inflation) as long as you can ignore the short term ups and downs in the market. If you are prone to overreaction due to emotion and news headlines, try dollar cost averaging.
6) You can pick your area of expertise and invest where you have an ‘edge.’ I have a good friend who is a Geologist and he invests in mining companies. I know nothing about mining and own 0% outside of my index funds. (for me, I would consider REITs if I did not own physical Real Estate)
7) You can leverage your investing if you have strong conviction by using a margin account.
8) You can spread risk on three levels.
a. Individual stocks 80% in say a utility stock that pays dividends. And 20% in a high risk stock like Nvidia.
b. Individual Industries: Don’t want to buy a specific stock, but believe in an ‘industry’ concept? Invest in an index of Crypto, AI, Real Estate, Green Tech, EV’s, Marijuana stocks, plant based protein etc.
c. Whole Index: Don’t know anything about any industries but believe in the stock market in general, buy a general S&P500 index or similar with a low MER.
9) If you want a steady stream of income, you can buy dividend stocks as opposed to growth stocks.
10) The cycles for bust in the stock market are generally shorter than RE. This can easily be argued about in the short term, but the longer the time frame when looking at each, the closer the actual converges to the expected outcome. I have three interesting graphs for when I talk about cycles, EV's and length of observation. One for each of 1) Gambling, 2)Equities investing, 3) RE investing. Each have distinct properties. I can give a detailed explanation of each graph/diagram if you want.
11) There are lots of tax advantages for buying equities especially in ‘Registered’ accounts.
(US 401k, Roth IRA- CAN: RRSP, spousal RRSP,RESP, TFSA, FTHB accounts.) If you are UK or other country not US/Can .. sorry I can't help there.
12) Many employers have matching retirement savings payments as financial incentives that allow you to invest at any level described in #8.

I've never understood why people invest in RE when you can put money into an SP500 fund and have it double every 7 years over the long run with complete passivity. RE is from passive - sure you can hire PM's but now you're hurting your minimal cash flow and relying on someone else who will inevitably make mistakes costing you money. The annual wear and tear on a rental is massive - tenants for the most part are animals especially the lower level ones in multi families. Just have one of them stop paying and destroy your house will erase your cash flow for years. The lack of liquidity is a major turn off as well - I think there's much more consistency that a stock will go up X over 10 years then RE, as RE can fluctuate heavily.

Apologies for the very long post ahead of time.

If you have read my posts in the past you will realize that I am a heavy RE investor and have overcome all reasons why RE is a bad investment and even better than Equities.
Please recognize that this is from my point of view and your conditions are different than mine. I also have a different skillset and personality type that fits well with RE investment. Everyone is obviously different and will have different time horizons, risk profile, investable cash, tolerance to everyday complaints, need for cash etc.

+Twenty reasons why RE is a good investment. (this is NOT the home you live in.. There are additional reasons for owning your own home pro and con, but that is a different discussion)
Please note that I generally utilize all of the allowable tax incentives for Equities before RE. In Canada that would be RRSPs,Spousal RRSP, TFSA, .. for younger people FHSA and RESP. Then move on to RE investments. (as opposed to non tax advantaged Equities investments.. ie. normal trading or margin accounts)

1) You can leverage way more than a margin account. Margin 2 to 1 --- Mortgage say 4 to 1. This is your typical 25% deposit.

2) When the value of your RE investment dips below your initial cash down payment the bank will NOT call your mortgage to be paid in full and foreclose on your house. You just need to keep making your mortgage payments. I have had margin calls on my accounts before, but never a call from the bank saying you are underwater on your mortgage and we are going to sell your house and make you take a loss.

3) After a number of years of owning a property, you can do a cash out re-finance and get your deposit amount back and be in the ‘infinite return’ on investment column. Ask me if you need a more detailed description of what this means.

4) You can improve the return on your investment by having more knowledge and taking action. This can be forced appreciation or just tenant management and capital expenditure management. Again, I can write a whole chapter on this topic.

5) Capital expenditures on your RE investment are deductible.

6) Capital expenditures on your RE investment increase the value of your investment and allow you to charge higher rents. (new hot water tank maybe not; new kitchen or new flooring .. for sure)

7) Travelling to and from your RE investment can be tax deductible. This is very nice if you have at least one property in LV and like to make a trip there once per year and meet with your PM as part of your 3-4 day stay in LV.

8) There are endless tours that are 50-100% tax deductible (depends). There used to be LV bus tours of condos for sale during the great housing recession. In the last two months (2024-7 and 2024-8), I have been invited to look at RE in Thailand, Real Estate Investors Summit at Sea 2025 Florida-Mexico-Honduras Cruise, Edmonton Bus Tour, BPCon in Cancn. I got to write off part of my trip to Toronto, by going to Niagara Falls to look at Air BNB properties.

9) You can make money in RE in 4-5 different ways on a single unit. Equity paydown (forced savings), tax deductions, cash flow, capital appreciation, forced appreciation (by installing washer/dryers, or generally upgrading older units upon turnover)

10) When you make it to the commercial level of RE (+5 units residential or retail, industrial etc.). you no longer borrow money based on your income. The amount you can borrow is based on the Cash Flow or NOI. If you get to this level, you are always on the lookout for commercial property that meet your investment criteria.

11) US only, You can use a 1030 Exchange to defer Capital Gains tax when you ‘upgrade’ from your current property to a higher costing investment. (think… going from a single family home to a duplex) or a 300k single family home to a larger 500k SFH with a secondary/basement suite.

12) US only, you can lock in long term mortgage rates of up to 25years. I locked in several mortgages in Canada at around 2% but the maximum term allowed here was 5 years. In the US, you could have gotten a 25 year term at 4.5% 3 years ago.

13) Interest on investment mortgages are tax deductible. In Canada and USA this is true. It used to be true for USA primary residences but in 2023 Publication 936 – changed that. Please ask your tax accountant for the latest info. In Canada you can use HELOCs to get around primary residence interest payments on the HELOC parts. (good to check with your Tax accountant again) For primary residences in Canada only, lookup the Smith Manoeuvre. It is an advanced tax strategy for investors.

14) You begin to cascade your investments using #3 and #10 and the wealth curve becomes exponential if you keep at it. When I began investing in RE, it took 6 years before my second investment. My 3rd investment took 5 years after that. My 4th was 3 years after that. Now I am buying or selling a property every year, and each successive property is larger than the one just sold.

15) The risk of ruin decreases with each successive purchase. At the beginning, fixed accounting and legal filings are a minimum $ (couple thousand) the risk of ruin from one bad tenant goes down when you have more ‘doors’ Ie. In Detroit I almost always had one or even two bad tenant(s) not paying. If you have many units 2 not paying is not so bad. If you have 2 units and 2 are not paying = major stress! This scenario will make many normal people quit the game.

16) There are several investor development programs that were designed to encourage investors to develop more rental units. Currently that is what we call ‘infill’ units in Canada. In my province we have changed zoning to allow up to SIX units on a property where previously only ONE was allowed. In the US, the local municipal government usually assigns an area as a 'economic development area/opportunity zone' and gives tax breaks and discounts for developers with projects within the boundaries.

17) There are many energy efficiency programs that give you huge discounts if you make an upgrade from an old unit to a high efficiency version. There are also free ‘assessment’ programs provided by our utility companies. Then they give you free hardware to upgrade if you ask for it. i.e. low flow toilets and shower heads. Pipe insulation etc. We do not have solar programs here(Canada), but that was the case for a multi unit complex in Kansas City that I was involved in 5 years ago.

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Specifically for me
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18) I have the right personality for RE. I have written 1000’s of replies to complaining tenants when I was a professional property manager. With me it is all business now. I do start all my letters with understanding but have solid reasons for everything. When a rent cheque bounces, we have a $35 fee. Non waivable. I tell the tenant, I will give you the number of our bank and if you can get them to waive the NSF fee, so will we. Etc. When the plumber’s report comes back that the toilet was backed up because they pulled a hair clip was stuck in the drain, I tell them to call the plumber and ask them to change the report. I typically use embarrassment as a tool against them. They never call.

19) I have the right training for RE. I am licensed in PM, HOA/Strata management and have a trading agent’s license. I have fixed everything from roof leaks, to break ins, to HVAC systems, to elevators. I have done enough insurance claims to know the process.
When dealing with problem tenants, I usually overload them with the correct paperwork. I have never had a tenant say you gave me too much paperwork. I give it to them and tell them what line in the tenancy they have breached and explain the procedure.., always written. If I meet them in person, I always wear a tie and carry a soft leather document holder. Tenants fight less if you talk and look like you know exactly what to to.

20) I have enough spare cash waiting on the side that I can move quickly to put a property under contract. I look at enough target properties that I know when a good deal comes up.

21) I assume that I have enough credibility with the local RE investing community that if I needed to raise funds, I could do so. I have listened to and can give a 2 minute ‘elevator’ pitch for a property that I am interested in.

22) I enjoy learning and talking about RE. I go to several monthly RE investor meet ups and have developed a general strategy that works. It is nothing new, just my own version of bits and pieces I have read in my collection of RE books and courses. My last course I took this week was “Court ordered sales, Foreclosures and Tax Sales.”

1) Third job application, no reply. Sent a 4th application in two weeks ago.
Job title is Senior Development Analyst. Same job as the previous one called Senior Acquisition Analyst. I figured I had a 5% chance at the job as well.
I already assuming that I did not make the cut as I was not even asked for an interview.
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2) Delta Warehouse: Tenant has made their 1st payment of 4. So progress. only about $2200 outstanding.
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3) Equities Investing. No Action. Same Just sitting on GIC's waiting for a good investing opportunity.
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4) Hamilton House. Approved tenant backed out and now I am looking for a new tenant again.
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5) Edmonton RE. Las Vegas RE. No Action. RE prices seem pretty sticky. Patiently waiting. I came up with an interesting option that may come to pass next year. Everything will depend on my
younger son and what he does in the next 10 months.
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6) No change: Education future has definitely changed. Tried to register for Econometrics. They have about 4 different classes and every one of them is 75/75 full.. with waiting list. ?!?
In addition, to get priority to take the class, you have to be in one of the degree specialties that i think has this course as a prerequisite, like International Macroeconomics. If I can't take it, not sure what I am going to do. Maybe visit the prof in person and see if they allow me to audit the class.... and make it 76/75 students.
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7) RE meetups: Going to a 4 different meetups per month now. The latest, seems just to be a social group, but is all local RE investors that network over drinks.
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8) Detroit homes: Nothing of note to report. Rents all being collected on time.
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9) Vancouver Warehouse. Subject removal on August 26, Closing Oct 30.
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10) Wainwright Storage. Nothing to report.
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#11) Sarnia Ontario. Apartment. Next meeting is in Sept 14 or so. Nothing to report.
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#12 Finished reading Finished reading 'Ego is the Enemy' by Holiday. Read 'Break Your Wealth Ceiling' Dy. A local RE investor. Currently reading 'Dune Messiah' Herbert and 'Your Next 5 Moves' by Patrick Bet-David.
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#13 Future Authoring program. My long term goals have not changed, My medium term goal that Is helping me a lot (and I didn't even know it) is mentoring others in business and RE investing.
A 4th business person has asked me to help/advise them on a RE development. Even though I can tell from the start, by the quality of the individuals answers, (or lack of understanding of the question) that they are way over their head, I do not tell that person, you are being foolish, . I just keep asking them questions, from the point of a contractor, investor, bank loan officer, city inspector, etc. and hope they realize they have bitten off too much as a first project. I started off in an email chain with 101 questions about xxxxx development. When I am asking these questions, I am simultaneously running through the answer in my head with regards to my potential next investment; item 5 of this list.
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#14 Real Estate Agent's license. Still looking at local properties with my 1st son. We have expanded his search to look at appartements within 2k walking distance to his current work.