Exercise is free. lol k.

None that I can think of. It is easy to say stuff you could do in theory but the reality is very different. You either have to consciously be frugal to the point of absurdity or you will burn though money that you can't afford to even trying to do the stuff no one would actually do. The reality is if someone tried to do this they would basically just watch TV and screw around on the internet all day. To each their own but I see that as a complete waste of life.

Why would you choose to live an hour away from a place you have to travel to constantly? If I worked my commute would be less than ten minutes -- likely less than five.

As for work yes I would prefer working and being around other people to being at home all day with no money to do anything.

this sums up the entirety of why your perspective is completely off base. you don't need money to do stuff. that's an artificial construct you've chosen for yourself.

how can you continue on for 30+ pages about how it's "impossible" to live on 30k, or how it's impossible to entertain yourself on $10/day, when you aren't willing to deviate one bit from your ridiculously lavish lifestyle?

Yes, it's impossible to live a $300k/yr lifestyle on $30k/yr. You can still find happiness at $30k/yr, or even less.

Well, maybe not you specifically, but other individuals who haven't grown accustomed to dropping hundreds of dollars in order to prove to other people how happy they are certainly can.

University towns are great for cheap entertainment, FWIW.

Almost half the world is living on less than $2 a day, if they got a raise the could live every day of their entire life (under 69 years) on around $50,000.

So ridiculous tax arguments and needy blithering aside, 20 people could live off $1 million.

Ask a stupid question...

The idea that you'll have to save to do popcorn+movie is I think what bothers Henry. Or that you have to go to the "old releases" to not go over budget for the day. Or that you'll have to save for a day to see a museum. Or that feeding the ducks will take 10% of your budget to buy bread for the ducks. Etc

Its not that it isn't doable. Its that the level is so absurdly low that we're basically arguing about whether we're moving to Uzbekistan or Angola and foraging.

Basic exercise is free. If you have enough discipline to keep yourself on a schedule you don't have to pay a membership to some gym, buy $10,000 worth of equipment, or hire some trainer to make sure you're not slacking off.

A simple jog, push ups, sit ups, maybe one of those cheap pull up bars that go into your doorway are free / very little cost. You can probably find a punching bag for $20-50 on craigslist (just make sure it's not filled with dead bodies).

I was comparing this to the above $10/day example for entertainment only. This is assuming a 30k/year job right? If it came down to:

Being forced to work at some place for 8 hours a day
-or-
Doing whatever you wanted for 8 hours a day

...and the end result was $10/day set aside for entertainment then "no money to do anything" has no relevance. In both cases you would have the same amount of money.

The hour commute was just random filler to get +1h so it was 9 hours vs 9 hours. If you spend less time commuting then it's about the same.

Yes if I was only going to have $10 for entertainment then I would prefer to work a $30k a year job. At least five days out of the week I'm occupied which leaves the entertainment budget to be spent on the weekend. I'd actually take two jobs so I could increase my income.

Yes. Though if you'd like to be informed, use equipment, try new things, etc etc. The idea that its "free" is laughable. Its like suggesting that reading is free because you own one book. Ergo you can read forever.

Even something rudimentary like running requires shoes for most people. These will wear out (given your estimates for time spent) every month to ten weeks. Of course, you could learn to run barefoot and deal with inevitable injury as you can't afford safe running conditions. Or the other injuries. We could blow up the entertainment budget for an ace bandage and an ice pack.

Blah blah blah. Something like an instrument as well. Like a reed instrument. Reeds are 2-3 bucks each. You use one a week? You get your instrument cleaned once a year 100-200 bucks. Then you wanna buy/borrow/steal music to learn. If you can't afford this, you can't learn alto sax (ignoring the cost of it and assuming the desire to play an instrument that works).

Its the same argument posed with languages. You literally cannot learn many languages in the manner he suggested. It is virtually impossible. I'd actually say that it is completely impossible. Your interests are limited vastly by having no money. Not even extravagant things. You can't play some instruments cause you can't afford the dollar a day to use them or whatever.

why shouldn't you avoid popcorn+movie? they're a terrible value, the only thing that's a worse value entertainment wise are probably strip clubs.

art museum? free admission on thursdays.

feeding the ducks... you don't feed them a whole freaking loaf of bread.

the problem is neither you nor henry have the ability to do a proper valuation of anything anymore because you've gotten soft from the ease by which you come by your incomes.

No one is talking about a lavish lifestyle. Lavish I'd say you blow the year's budget in a week or two -- I've had nights where I've blown more than two year's budget. That isn't what we are talking about and the fact that a condom represents 20% of your nightly entertainment budget should say something and lavish isn't it.

Again no one is talking about getting bottle service here but yes leaving the house is nice. Normal people like to do it. Gf and I went out just for a very casual evening and watched some sports. Cab ride there and cab ride home both very short. Two long island ice teas, three beers, some wings and nachos, and a little under an hour worth of pool and that was over $100. That is a pretty low-profile night out and being able to do that more than once a month is important.

Previous city I lived in was a university town and it wasn't any cheaper. It lacked expensive options but we are already talking about going to the cheap places and being limited to 1.5-2 drinks.

There is nothing "easy" about the money I earn. I deserve every cent I make far more than anyone person doing whatever they're doing. If they disagree, they can do what I'm doing better than me and take my jube. Its a pure meritocracy.

Value is immaterial as an objective argument. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of wants/markets/utility.

You can try out new things on your own. You're limited vs a gym but if you're specifically targeting an exact muscle in your body to work out then you've probably crossed the line of basic exercise and are now into some "body building / muscle toning" field.

You can read a lot for free. Does your town not have a public library? The internet has a ton of free reading material too.

You can buy new men's generic running shoes for $10. Our exercise budget now just hit 30 cents a day roughly if you buy a new pair every month.

I guess an instrument was too broad. A guitar for instance costs about 15 cents a day to play. This cost comes from buying new strings once a month. Occasionally you might splurge $1.50 every few months for new picks.

It requires no cleaning or maintenance if you take care of it. Out of the blue a pot or pickup might break but to get a pot replaced costs $10. I've had the same guitar for 10 years and none of the electronics have been a problem.

One of the bridge screws popped off once and I wasn't sure what to do (it looked kind of serious). I spent the gas required to drive 5 minutes up the road to a local music shop. The guy fixed it for free because it took literally 30 seconds.

He conned me into buying a string winder for $6.75 + tax but it has a lifetime guarantee so I think it was a worthy investment. I didn't have to go back to my car and write out a business expense plan or call an accountant to make sure I was capable of affording the purchase. I just splurged on the product without a second guess.

You can find sheet music / tab online for free on hundreds of web sites. Youtube is also there for lessons or just wanting to see other people play.

Call it asinine if you want, but I personally know people who do it, and I know what they're lifestyle is like. You and Henry were the ones who originally said you couldn't live alone, eat out, go out drinking, or save money off $30K-$40K. I'm just pointing out that I personally know people who accomplish those things on $20K. I guess calling it asinine is a better strategy than trying to have an honest, intelligent conversation about it.

In case you're curious, their budget is probably like so:
~$500 on apartment
~$600 on food and entertainment
~$500 on savings

I agree it's not a great life, and I want to make more as soon as possible (I live on the same salary as them, but I don't save because I spend more on food and entertainment). They're completely content though, and don't hold back (meaning, they eat out often, go out often, etc). Notice also that they're doing this on $20K, so you could easily do a lot more with $30K-$40K (see the few budgets I've already posted in this thread), especially if you're not trying to save much.

YE,

Your budget doesn't include basic life items and is absurd. Health care? Transport? Clothing? Toiletries? Sundries? That is how people who can't budget make budgets.

Shoe Lace,

How do you get sheet music from online to use? Print it out? $$$$$$$$$$ As far as I'm aware, you can't play the guitar at the library while you surf the internet. Even then as before you have very limited options. Where do you draw the line? Some arbitrary definition of value you foist on people? At whatever line you construe as extravagance?

I'm 22, and it could be done VERY, VERY easily.... assuming you don't have to pay any taxes on that first million. You guys are making this way too complicated

True, the budget I just gave was supposed to be a big-picture overview. The people I know living off $20K have health care as part of their grad school stipend. They probably spend $100 a month on toiletries plus transportation, so feel free to take that off savings or food/entertainment. They have cheap tastes when it comes to clothing, so that only amounts to a few hundred dollars every year.

Again though, let's just imagine someone only had $2500 a month to live off. This would be a very doable budget for a lot of people (and can also be adjusted easily):
$1000 a month on an apartment (including internet, utilities, etc) (assume live downtown, so transportation is much cheaper)
$1000 a month on food and entertainment (including toiletries)
$500 a month on miscellaneous (clothing, health insurance, etc)

Again, it's not a great life, but it's more consumption than a lot of people have.

Food is the most glaring thing I see. You guys know you can pay almost nothing for food, as long as you don't eat out? And I mean almost nothing literally.

Not if the apartment is nice, you're not eating rice for every meal, etc. I bet even a lot of wealthy people spend a huge chunk of their income on food, shelter, transportation; that doesn't mean they're barely surviving.

For anonymity, I don't want to say what city I live in. However, it's a good size city (probably in the top 50 within the US). Houses are probably more expensive than the US average.

And by most cities, I guess you mean places with cost of living numbers comparable to NYC, Boston, San Fran, LA, etc? There are plenty of big cities that are actually pretty cheap, such as Portland, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Denver, Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Nashville, Chicago, St. Louis, etc.

This isn't true in the least. Maybe if you want to develop freak health issues or eat the same terrible stuff day by day.

Well, for instance, I live in Des Moines right now. There's a christian missionary that serves 3 hot meals a day, free of charge. In addition to that, there's plenty of food pantrys that also give free food. If worst comes to worse, there are plenty of low income people who will sell you their food stamps for 50 cents on the dollar.

You can also shoot deer during deer hunting season. Freeze the meat so it doesn't spoil, grow tomatoes and other plants in season if you have a yard.

I pay virtually nothing for food.

I think this gets at the heart of the argument. You guys are saying that you can't afford going to the movies, going out for drinks, living alone, etc, off $30K. A lot of us are trying to tell you that we know plenty of people who do it, so it's simply not true. I think we just want you guys to say, "I don't want to live off that amount of money, because I enjoy the comfort that comes with being able to go to nicer restaurants/bars, spending more money on clothes, etc." That's totally legit, and on a personal level, I totally agree with you guys. I hate living off $20K a year (which is what I'm currently doing). I would be very disappointed if I only made $30K-$40K a year for the rest of my life. However, I know people who would be very happy off those amounts, and actually know people who live off less, and afford a lot of the things that you two are claiming are impossible to afford off that income. In other words, I'm telling you guys that I personally know counterexample to your claims (in fact, I'm personally a counterexample to many of your claims, which I've pointed out throughout this thread). I agree with you guys, for some people (including me), $30K-$40K isn't enough to afford the lifestyle that we badly want. That's totally different from saying that $30K means you can't afford movies, dates, drinks, eating out, savings, etc. Again, the reason it's not true, is because plenty of people do it.

We're budgeting in $10/day for entertainment. This isn't counting bills and other living essentials. The library would be for books (to read).

30k/year is enough to own 1 (even 2) computers. You don't need a printer to print it out. Just play close enough to the monitor so you can see it. For $2.50 you can even buy a converter which will let you hook the guitar up to the computer in case you happen to find someone who will give you lessons online or you figure out that you can entertain yourself for a longer period of time when you're able to record yourself playing.

If you're dead set on playing in an area away from the computer you can hit up the library and print it there for whatever trivial cost it may be. If you're gung ho about your hobby you might decide not to go out on the weekend once and use the $60ish to buy a printer on craigslist. Not a big deal.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=...xt+door+amazon

YoungEcon,

20k =/= 30k and before tax =/= after tax. You're using really fuzzy math and gross broad ranges.

$20K is less than $30K. So if I say I know people who are able to afford those things on $20K, that means they could also afford it on $30K. That's because $30K > $20K. Talk about fuzzy math and logic. Also, if you've ever studying logic or math proofs, you should realize that a counterexample can disprove your claim (which I provided). The $30K number comes from the original discussion, where people in this thread seemed to agree that $1M for the rest of your life works out to about $30K-$40K per year (and if I remember correctly, that was the after tax number).

I'm really not trying to argue with you Thremp, because we're actually kind of on the same page here. We both would hate to live off $30K-$40K for the rest of our lives. The only thing I object to, is you saying people can't afford popcorn, movies, drinks, lunch, dates, etc. on $30K-$40K. The reason I disagree, is because I currently buy those things on $20K (pre-tax). Furthermore, I know plenty of people with incomes at the same level, as well as some people at the $30K-$40K range, and they buy those things also.