Blasphemy! Blocking him is depriving yourself of posting gold.

Okay, don't lock the thread, and perhaps I am "why so serious" right now. I am working dead hard to learn this stuff.

Alrite, alrite. As I seem to have caused Liberty to have some kind of breakdown, I will have one last go...

Rikers... 'Levelling' is just one of the factors that the players of today use to discredit these Levels. It is a real thing, but it only becomes relevent once a player and his opponent become consciously aware of all the Levels. The reason everyone thinks that Levelling is a bigger deal than it is, is because most of these guys are incapable of understanding how the Levels work in general, instead, they can only consider them in respect of one situation. In one specific situation against a specific villain they work out how all the Levels would work, and then they incorrectly assume that in general we want to play at one Level higher than our opponent.

Once you understand how the Levels work in general, you realise that to have an advantage over your opponent you need to be capable of one Level higher than him, but you will always be using all the Levels that came before it too -

In general, we use Level Three to bluff, or better still, we use it to decieve our opponent. And if our opponent is playing at Level Two he will only be playing for value... It is true that if the opponent is only playing for value we do want to bluff him off his weak hands. But we do want to play for value ourselves too. There's no reason why we would only bluff a guy who plays only for value. That is ridiculous.

Liberty, you talk of wasting time. But I just explained something that nobody else in the Poker world could tell you. You're a Poker player, and you cant point out any fault in my logic, yet you think that its me wasting your time! This is one of the funniest things about CogD. Once you understand how it works you realised that everyone keeps giving away the exact peice of information needed to point out there flaws. Liberty, you are wasting my time with this nonsense. What was it you apprehensively guessed about Sklansky. That he was not 'enlightened' by the Level One section of the formula. So, you're basically are saying that he didn't see the sense in Level One. Haahaha! All you've pointed out is that he cant comprehend that Level, but your too late, he already told us!

TooCurious, who even are you?? Lol, I dont know, why would I lose to you?? Team America eh. Hmmm, is it because you have a gun???

Yadoula,

TooCuriousso is just a hater like everyone else in this thread. If you beat him in high stakes poker (he probably doesn't even know about Levels) that should shut everyone up.

I didn't say that I could. This is just another of your crazy attempts to discredit my logic.

I think it's safe to say that in this day and age, on average, somebody who studies GTO will beat the player who studies exploitation in a one on one game. However, its also safe to say that with a mixed field of players the exploitative player is sure to make more money than the GTO player.

Easy... Give me another...

I'm interested. Do you have some real world examples, non poker?

Yes mate! Of course I do...

Narcissistic abusers are known to use one strategy time and time again. They slyly create situations which they expect the victim will react badly in so that when the victim responds in the expected way the abuser can play the victim themselves.

This is a Level Three play, and it utilises the future present. Each Level is split into four parts - the past, present, future and future-present. If you consider any 'game' in respect of all five Levels at all four timeframes you will have considered all the elements that you can use to concoct your strategies.

That move from the narcissist was Level Three as they are disguising the true reason for their actions. And it is future-present because they are creating a more profitable situation for their next move.

These guys have other strategies too.

The first thing that they usually do is win over the victims affections by pretending to be whoever the victim wants them to be. Again this is a Level Three manoeuvre, except this time it only relates to the future. The primary goal of the narcissist is to justify a heightened opinion of themselves and once the victim comes to like them it enables the abuser to boost their opinion of themselves, and then the play is complete... Unfortunately this won't satisfy their desire for long. With the victim already emotionally attached to them, the abuser will need to come up with a new way to use this person to build their own opinion of themselves, and so they start creating situations in which the victim will react badly in. The worse they can make the victim appear, the better they will see themselves.

They also do something called gaslighting. This again utilises the future-present except this time it's Level Four. They understand that the victim is considering how they themselves are perceived. And so the abuser secretly creates situations which will lure the victim into looking at themselves and feeling as though they are as negative as the abuser is desperately trying to prove that they are.

These are three common moves made by narcissists and the Levels are quite clear to see... Well... It's reasonably easy for a normal person to work out how these abusers operate...

In this post I could have explained how businessmen use the Levels which I do think would have gone down a treat. I could have used Sun Tzu's book to describe how the Levels work in war which would have been interesting and would have made me look amazing. But I chose narcissism, even though I know very little about it... I chose narcissism for one specific reason and one reason alone - These narcissistic abusers are using high Level strategic methods, and yet, they have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

Once their ploy's are successful, the abuser will genuinely believe that the victim is 'low'. They will genuinely believe themselves to be innocent and the victim to be the cause of the problems in their relationship. These guys are using the Levels to strategize and yet they have absolutely no idea what they are doing. They are completely unaware of the rather sophisticated strategic method that they themselves are applying. And then, if you are stupid enough to explain to the abuser what it is that they are really doing, you will see what they call 'Narcissistic Rage'.

These guys have accidentally created conflicting knowledge in there mind. They are holding onto multiple understandings of themselves, which is Level One. Unconsciously the abuser has learnt that they themselves are low, or weak. And then consciously they have been convincing themselves that in fact they are strong. Any challenge to this 'falsely' strong opinion of themselves will then lead the narcissist to experience cognitive dissonance. They will go mental when challenged. If a normal person were to make any of those same strategic moves then they will be fully aware of how they are twisting and manipulating the victim and this will enable them to feel remorse which will lead to them refraining from such actions. But because these guys have knowledge that conflicts at the root of Level One, they suffer from cognitive dissonance which makes it almost impossible for them to see not only the truth regarding Level One, but also all the Levels above it too. If they could see what they were doing at Level Three, that would prove to them that they are not as great as they think they are, and so, they can't see what they're doing. Their mind blocks the higher Levels from them.

If an experienced poker player doesn't consciously understand any Level, they will have built up conflicting knowledge at their current Level which will make it difficult for them to see all the levels above it. This is almost exactly the same as what has happens to the narcissist. Narcissists are stuck at Level One in their game and they cant see any of the higher Levels, and that means that they have to leave all the strategizing to their subconscious mind.

These Levels are often used subconsciously. And if we build up knowledge without being consciously aware of the Levels we are bound to build trust in conflicting knowledge which will make it difficult for us to approach the parts of the strategic formula that we ourselves are using. For example, if a poker player consciously understands only how to play at Level Two, and doesn't realise how the higher Levels work, he will still bluff which is Level Three, but he wont be able to see how he calculates his bluffs. He wont be able to see the method that his own mind uses to deceive the opponent. And then, when someone like me kindly comes along and explains to them how this Level works, their conflicting knowledge will make them go insane. There is very little you can say to convince them of the truth regarding their own strategic method, but I have developed methods which we can use to teach Poker players and I don't see why the same methods wouldn't work on a narcissist.

Everyone you encounter in your life will have some narcissistic qualities. Narcissism is getting bigger and bigger all the time. And so it is really useful to learn those moves I just described. Once you can see what these guys are doing they don't bother you anymore.

For example, if a poker player consciously understands only how to play at Level Two, and doesn't realise how the higher Levels work, he will still bluff which is Level Three, but he wont be able to see how he calculates his bluffs. He wont be able to see the method that his own mind uses to deceive the opponent. And then, when someone like me kindly comes along and explains to them how this Level works, their conflicting knowledge will make them go insane.

The above excerpt made me think of this scripture:

"For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God.
They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another."--Romans 2:14,15 (GOD'S WORD Translation)

AmIdoingitright?/10

This. I think a practical demonstration of OP's perfect understanding of game theory is required. Any clown can claim they're solved something; the real men (who are operating at level three/infinity) prove it.

So I think OP should participate in heads up poker to demonstrate his/hers/its/zirs level of prowess at applying his profound theoretical understanding.

Well, let me prove this narcissist thing first. How do u think we should prove it Toothsayer? Cagematch?

All of life is a cagematch, Yadoula. I think you are doing well. The key to a popular theory is having a well fitting yet simply structured shoehorn that fits most shoes.

I enjoyed your theory of narcissist threes. I would love to see you apply the three levels to a current item of global interest, Donald Trump. Is Trump level 1, 2 or 3? How does he compare to Obama?

At Level One of the decision making process we find the things that we can use to strategize with. The thing about Obama and Trump is that they don't have many things at Level One. When they get out their checkbook they see that all the checks have already got names on them. They have very few assets as their disposal and so there is very little that either of them can do to strategize. These presidents wern't dealt any cards, they dont have any chips, so it doesnt matter if they are good strategists or not.

Having said that... Trump is blatantly a Class A fool. I think that he genuinly does want to make friends with Russia but didn't realise that he has no power to do so. And so all he can do to win Putins affections is offer him a firm handshake and a big smile whilst the American armed forces goes off and reinforces all Russia's enemies. In the same way, I think Trump does also genuinely want to tackle the media too, but with the Level One coffers empty, all he can actually do is use his physical body to 'tackle' a logo which belongs to a media firm. It's a joke.

I liked Obama, and I think he used what little power he had reasonably well. As with Trump, he couldnt do anything to stop the war machine sweeping across the world, but Obama just ignored all that stuff and concentrated on the things he could change. He did still perform the role the moneymen expect of the president and so he definitely wasnt a great leader. He chose to distract the people from what was going on by rapping and being awesome. He used the fact that he was a legend to keep the people happy, but, he was just a sideshow. To call the american president a world leader nowadays is a joke.

In the real game that is being played, in the game where the players do genuinely hold Level One assets, Obama and Trump both fulfill the same role, which is primarily Level Three. They are the distraction. They deceive the people. The moneymen know that these guys will never get elected if they stand up and say, "If I'm elected, I'm going to help the Saudis bomb schools and weddings so that our economy stays afloat." The moneymen know the presidents wont say anything like this. They know that the presidents will instead find a way to justify all the things that they are forcing them to do. They are not stood at the presidents shoulder directly whispering in his ear. They just force the president into a situation and leave them to do what they need to do to justify their secret plans to the people. If the president can't justify the plan, then the moneymen wouldnt be able to do it.

There is a very complicated game being played through out the world at the moment. The way I see it. Once upon a time the religions ruled the world, Gods ruled over man. Then came the kings who were people chosen by God to lead. Next came the politicians who actually get elected by the people to lead. At each step of this journey the power gets closer and closer to the people. But the next step in the pattern is not the people. The businessmen are directly fueled by the people. What we are seeing right now is the businessmen taking the power from the governments. For the most part this has already happened in the west, but these businessmen are not about to step up and take responsibility for their actions because they are evil. They are not going to stand up and tell everyone what they are doing. They let the governments stay on and do that job.

Fascinating, thanks.

You haven't solved decision theory. Making the highest ev decision requires perfect information. You never have perfect information. In fact there is an entire spectrum of ev decisions even within a relatively simple game such as poker that you don't even realize exist.

The 'Perfect Thought Process' requires knowing the existence of all relevant variables the decision is contingent upon. Decision theory is about using as much information as you have to make the 'most correct,' 'highest ev' decision which in regards to poker some people just call 'playing poker.' In this sense decision theory itself is not solvable, only individual decisions might be, and in the reality we live in where you never have perfect information decision theory is only the framework used to estimate the best possible decision given the relevant factors.

You may have narrowed down a simplistic and workable framework for making poker decisions, but I'm pretty sure that's been done already.

That is a serious case of CogD you got there

Perhaps he hasn't found his physical self yet? Even David Sklansky, a top strategist, struggles with this at times.

Ok, thanks! I am still confused about those definitions but I do think I get the general jist.

I have found a simple and workable framework for making poker decisions! Except, I'm pretty sure this is the simplest most efficient framework possible. And I also see how it can be adapted so that it can be used to strategize in any 'game'... I was well learned in Poker before I started so this hasn't been done before.

Incase your interested, I have actually worked out three separate frameworks for making decisions - Each of the strategic Levels stands alone. I can see how a being could make a decisions using only Level One and Two. I can see how they can make decisions using Three and below. And I can see how they make them using Level Four and below. And I suspect this shows the major steps in the evolution of the mind.

Can you again break down levels - decisions and "assets" on those levels. I think that part is partially unclear...

At Level One we find our assets like our cards.

At Level Two, we consider the opponents cards and weigh up the strength of their's against the strength of ours - We use the past to find the present strength of the cards. We consider the future to see how the present strength the cards will change. We use the future-present to see how the strength of his cards might change after future decisions.

At Level Three, we consider the way the opponent percieves our strength. We use the past to develop an understanding of the opponents perception of our current strength. We use the future to predict how the opponents perception of our strength will change. And we use the future present to consider how the opponents perception of our strength will change after future manouvres.

To make a Level Three decision. We consider the strength of our percieved range, (Level Three) then we consider how the opponents perception of our range will change after we make a decision. We can then consider how he will react to our percieved range with the hands in his range (Level Two), and we can then compare the strength of his forthcoming range against the strength of our hand (Level One) to see if we will win.

We can also take this one step further and consider the same process again for the next opportinity to make a play. The future-present.

I call this Level Three decision "The Standard Play Model". At Level Four the order gets all confusing as this seems to add a whole new dimension to the decision making process.

What interests me most nowadays is this... At Level One we find all the physical things that belong to us. We litterally find our hands and our feet. Our cards and our chips. But I've realised that we create this idea of a Level One self due to the things that we can do with ourself. And so, Level One is actually created by the higher Levels. Without the higher levels, without a mind making strategic calculations, we dont have a Level One self. Our physical self doesn't seem to exist. The entire 3D world only appears to exist because the mind exists. Without a mind, it appears as though there would be no physical world. It doesn't seem to be a solid world, but instead a world of possibility. Which seems to match up with what Buddha was saying. This entire process seems to match up with Buddism rediculously well... And thats when it all starts getting really wierd.

Yea, I think someone should hop in but your theory sounds a lot like iterative game theory (Repeated game with incomplete information).

The last part is not correct. Level One is not created by higher self because a worm operates at level one without having higher order conceptual capability. It just approximates the truth like water = GOOD, very hot = BAD. The same way average American equals Middle East = BAD.

FYP

I think it is correct. Worms only seem to operate at Level Two... Each Level enhances the last and pre-empting the future only seems to be introduced at Level Three. So a worm is unable to perceive future changes and make plans, all its decisions are based on the past. Memory, in the form of instincts.

This is why without Level Three you don't really have a standard decision making process. A Level Two decision is very different. I am just a poker player, but I would love to speak with someone who studies the evolution of animals to see how this matches up.

Incase your interested... At Level Three we also seem to gain self-awareness. Self-awareness is clearly a Level One thing, but as with future planning, it also seems to be introduced at Level Three. There is little difference between perceiving yourself from the outside and perceiving yourself from the perspective of the opponent.

I'm just saying that:

Universe exists, but in the absence of lifeforms that have neg entropy process the universe is non existent since existence can only be achieved with the neg entropy process.

Still this is not as deep one would want. It still does not imply any absence of physical forces absent of the "mind". And it really is a lot less relevant to you personally so in nutshell time is better spent elsewhere.

Yadoula is English your first language?

Lol you're probably right. My editor made me delete most of that kinda stuff from the book too. It is a poker training guide, it did need to be functional, he was right. One day I'll blatantly write another which has very little to do with Poker. But i'll try to get 1000 playbooks out first

Ah I'm just talking ****.

I do find it difficult to read through most of your posts though. I'm not sure what to take from them or how it provides value in terms of making decisions.