It was actually an expert scientific study that was retracted, not the Fox News article. The experts screwed it up again - shocker!

I previously said that the protests likely aren't/won't make much difference. I'm 100% not partisan on this, I only care about data and logic.

The CDC and WHO didn't advise mask wearing because there was no evidence to suggest it helps. Such is the comical state of expert knowledge; with the trillions they've gotten over the decades, the morons have never thoroughly studied the physics of virus particle transmission on surfaces, via aerosols and with/without masks, something that can be studied cheaply and easily and thoroughly. Instead, these expert morons thought it was important (read:more fun) to traipse around jungles collecting exotic viruses. In fact, there's a reasonable chance that that's how it started in China; the Wuhan lab experts were collecting live bats with novel coronaviruses from around the country (for no good reason), which then attacked and peed on them.

Current studies on masks show conflicting results: some say that population mask wearing doesn't help or is a net negative (they encourage riskier behavior, and when not worn properly, and most don't, they can actually help spread). Some say they help somewhat. Nothing says that they help a great deal. All the expert modelling had masks as a tiny effect on spread rates. It's counterintuitive and perhaps the idiot scientists simply haven't caught with reality (most published science is wrong), but that's the current state of scientific knowledge right now.

So to blame Trump for not wearing a mask is just ludicrous.

I honestly don't think masks help all that much. At this point wearing one is more a form of social politeness than anything else. Mask conveys you take virus seriously, and are willing to put up with a minor inconvenience, even if it only protects others by a relatively small amount.

No mask conveys "screw everyone else, this ain't f***ing Chyna, we don't wear masks here in 'Murica".

This year has been so full of twists and turns that this should come as no surprise.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/hea...?ocid=msedgntp

Experts: don't wear masks! Tooth: lol you're dumb
Experts: wear masks! Tooth: lol you're dumb
Trump: inject bleach! Tooth: actually he's referring to this study

Interesting reading the takes from seniors who feel Trump let them down in these hot states. Man Biden is really gonna feast on Trump's failure.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/03/polit...ump/index.html

Quite a few recent studies have shown the right types of masks are very effective against spreading Covid. N95 of course being the best. Something is better than nothing, we can't get up in arms over people wearing bandanas even if they don't do much. At least they are doing something. But for those that want better protection for themselves/others, wear a 2 layer cloth mask WITH a filter (coffee filter, etc.) or surgical/N95. Not thin/loose cotton or the masks with valves, which don't help protect others at all.

I agree with both of you.

Grunching:

Shuffle is right about the masks.

Kudos to TS. His posts in this thread are outstanding imo. Insightful, informative.

Saw this:

Hydroxychlorquine Effective in Treating Coronavirus per Detroit Study

Quote:

A surprising new study found that the controversial antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine helped patients better survive in the hospital.

A team at Henry Ford Health System in Southeast Michigan said Thursday its study of 2,541 hospitalized patients found that those given hydroxychloroquine were much less likely to die.
Dr. Marcus Zervos, division head of infectious disease for Henry Ford Health System, said 26% of those not given hydroxychloroquine died, compared to 13% of those who got the drug. The team looked back at everyone treated in the hospital system since the first patient in March.
"Overall crude mortality rates were 18.1% in the entire cohort, 13.5% in the hydroxychloroquine alone group, 20.1% among those receiving hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin, 22.4% among the azithromycin alone group, and 26.4% for neither drug," the team wrote in a report published in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases.

It's a surprising finding because several other studies have found no benefit from hydroxychloroquine, a drug originally developed to treat and prevent malaria. President Donald Trump touted the drug heavily, but later studies found not only did patients not do better if they got the drug, ...

Controversial only because TRUMP offered up hope about it and the “resistance” being what it is discredited its effectiveness. The study will be properly vetted over time I am sure and we’ll see how it goes. Many doctors treat their COVID-19 patients with it. It is unfortunate that doctors seeking effective treatment protocols for a virus that we had little knowledge of get caught in the “crossfire” of a partisan political battle.

#nihilism

How to lose an argument without even trying.

Not at all. You're being pedantic and ignoring the substance of my argument.

My argument (made in good faith) was that countries which have a better handle on the novel coronavirus than the USA are in that position, not because of the political figurehead or their ideology, but primarily due to other factors. To use the examples given by El Razor of Merkel (Germany) and Ardern (New Zealand): Germany has a history of compulsory national/military service, an ethnically homogenous population, a relatively strong respect for central authorities, and world famous technical ability and efficiency, and national borders (which are substantially different to State borders in the US). New Zealand is an island country, with low population density, an already strict quarantine system due to the importance of dairy and agriculture to its economy, and a strong respect for the rule of law and government. Moreover, the work done by government agencies, health organizations, hospitals, and so on, may differ somewhat depending on who is in power, but they are not polar opposites. These and other differences are more significant than the political figurehead.

Appealing as it may be, it is lazy, and incorrect, to blame a politician, or a political party, for a situation like the novel coronavirus/COVID-19. If you had put Trump in charge of either of those countries in January 2020, they would be in a substantially similar position to that which they occupy today. If you had put Merkel or Ardern in charge of the USA in January 2020, likewise.

El Razor has not responded to this argument in good faith and instead repeatedly attacked me personally and nit-picked my posts. He adds nothing of value and his posts have distracted several other good posters here from contributing valuable and useful insights because they are engaged with his nonsense. I'd be really surprised if El Razor isn't a huge scumbag in real life. Incidentally, as Juan (who is a great poster, who has helped me and others by providing trading insights, and is generally civil and intellectually humble), pointed out, El Razor's avatar is an underage girl who was targeted by a group of internet perverts, and despite knowing this, he continues to use it.

Maybe in your zero-gravity overly academic world of literary pedantry, that is how you win arguments. But that is much ado about nothing.

Too bad he can’t chew. Maybe someone will give his feast the vitamix treatment. It’s so insane to me that anyone is already fist pumping a Biden victory. Remember the last time the democrats ran an old, feeble, unelectable candidate against trump?

The idea that anyone even wants a brain addled soon to be octogenarian as president if baffling, yet that’s the choice we are given. Which brain addled old should I vote for?

Most (maybe all?) N95 masks have valves, and only protect the wearer.

this is interesting. one major difference i can see about this study and others, is that the average age in this study was older and the patients had more severe conditions on average. mortality rate was 26% in control... yikes! then went down to ~1/8 with treatment, about normal for that age group and condition.

edit to add: it looks like the majority of patients who received HCQ also were given corticosteriods. Considering dexamethasone has been shown to be effective, it's not clear the results can be attributed to HCQ alone. It's possible the positive effects were due to the corticosteroids.

Some have valves, definitely not all. I'd be surprised to find out it was most.

I don't think despacito knows what "figure head" means.

Neither, both are just terrible options. I'll waste my vote (my own personal protest) on a 3rd party candidate like I did in 2016. At least in 2016 Gary Johnson was getting a little publicity. I haven't seen a single third party candidate advertisement or news article this year.

"In politics, a figurehead is a person who de jure appears to hold an important and often supremely powerful title or office, yet de facto exercises little to no actual power. This usually means that they are head of state, but not head of government. The metaphor derives from the carved figurehead at the prow of a sailing ship."

An actual figurehead, the Queen of U.K., did more to help her country deal with Covid-19 than our POTUS with power to make things significantly better than it is now.

I don't think despacito knows what that definition means, so he applies it incorrectly.

Most N95s do not have valves, and they protect both the wearer and those around them.

Hmmm, maybe its just the context I've seen them in (non medical), but I've never seen an N95 without a valve.

Obama has said publicly that he had less power as President to effect change than he had anticipated before taking office. The weird desire of many to see one man define the culture, or to blame him for doing so, is a fool's errand.

This is only tangentially relevant to coronavirus - but raging out at someone or something who is not the root cause of the problem is pointless.

That did not make him a figurehead.

That may or may not be true. Its debatable.

But what not debatable is that the president has tremendous power to effect change in a negative way.