Would you be good with you being one of the people who is going to die? How about someone you care about?

A butterfly flapping its wings WOULD have a nonzero effect.

You're missing the point entirely: your claim about Trump being -EV for the US handling of COVID is neither quantifiable nor falsifiable, it is not interesting at all nor is it relevant. It is based on strongly held (and incorrect) opinions and irrational partisan ideology; and not at all based on facts and logical reasoning.

Do you think the USA would be in a different (better) COVID situation if Merkel, Ardern, or AOC, had been leading the country since January 2020? Specifically what would be different now? And why (ie. evidence or logic)?

If Trump had been working with state governors promoting a unifying message promoting mask wearing and preventing states from reopening too early for the last couple months instead of doing the exact opposite of that there would absolutely be less cases right now. With proper leadership he could have unified the country and would actually be surging in the polls right now similar to GWB after 9/11, but he has shown himself to be completely incapable and everyone except the lunatic anti-vaxxer type crowd is done with him.

In a time of crisis he chose to divide the country further and make matters worse, and it has cost him the election. This won't be debatable soon.

And in the more targeted interest of BFI, proper leadership would have actually lessened the long-term impacts on the economy, we could have been starting to reopen now in a sustainable manner but instead we are being forced to shut down again.

+1.

The fact that you lump AOC in from absolutely nowhere, based on loose political alignment rather than competence and leadership, demonstrates your inability to divorce the complexity of the situation from your purely partisan perspective.

Just answer the question you fairy.

I'm not partisan nor a Trump supporter. You're avoiding the question, and instead, making ad hominem attacks, and baseless assumptions.

In your universe, anyone who doesn't agree with your rants is a right-wing Trump supporter. In reality, you're a stupid **** head who irretrievably checked out from reality long ago.

Next sentence:

*sigh*

So Trump should have gone AGAINST the advice of the CDC and WHO, who both said for months NOT to wear masks?
Completely incapable of what? You can't unify anyone when the batshit insane left wing media is on a rampage to attack, attack, attack, using any lies possible.

Left wing thinking divided the country, and nothing else. A policeman in a Democrat state of a Democrat city with a Democrat police chief had a policeman do a standard hold on a career criminal resisting arrest with a heart condition and drugs in his system (he didn't choke). He followed standard training set by the black Democrat police chief. The optics of this (by people who don't care about facts - another left wing trait) led to nationwide riots (mostly by white hard leftists and anarchists), which Democrat mayors and governors cynically encouraged by telling their police forces to stand down while they looted and burned. In Democrat Seattle, they let protestors take over 6 city blocks and murder people.

Democrats created the toxic victim culture, the narrative of systemic racism (a total myth, culture determines success these days), the idea that the system needs to be overthrown. That toxic poison created the division, and nothing else. Leftists have ruined dozens of countries the same way.
Yeah man. A "proper leader" could have stopped the CDC scientists from screwing up their tests. The president would get a virology degree in a few weeks in his spare time and go verify the tests himself and spot the flaws that none of any of the experienced Democrat scientists making and vetting them did. He could have overridden scientific advice from both the CDC and WHO not to wear masks. Then he would shut down the country while the experts at the CDC were telling him that there was "no community spread" and while no other country was shut down. He could have made Democrat voters (the vast majority of spreaders - minorities and the young) not go to illegal parties in NY and elsewhere, not hook up on dating apps after months of lockdown, not be irresponsible and party. He could have made Cuomo not force infected seniors back into nursing homes despite having zero power to do so.

Your take is so utterly ridiculous. You're the problem with America, son, not Trump. And FFS save your politics for the politics forum. You're so jacked on irrational dumb hate you can't even post on topic. Democrats are ruining this thread (like they're ruining America) with their fact-free Trump hate.

Amazing this simple question can't be answered by those wailing on Trump. And it's not a partisan; if someone said the same about Obama acting the way Trump has (early travel bans, expert task force very early, test ramp approval), I'd defend him the same way once the CDC scientists screwed up tests and gave horror bad advice ("no community spread in the US"). The country was screwed at that point - The US is so massive that it was impossible to buy the tests for a country as large as the US is. There wasn't enough capacity globally and it takes months to ramp., so absolutely nothing could have been done. If you can't test and trace you can't contain, it's that simple, and a good portion of the US populace besides (especially the Democrat populace which did most of the spread) is highly irresponsible so you can't rely on the populace like you can in some countries like Japan.

shuffle, you seem like one of those people who are scared to go outside to get some fresh air on a nice walk in nature bc of the virus. get it together my friend, stop being so negative on everything

left to my own volition, i would gladly sign up for a vaccine study where they intentionally infect you with the virus. i would have few concerns. if i was 25, i would have ZERO CONCERNS.

unfortunately, my circumstances preclude this as i partially live with 85+ year olds.

At one point I was thinking the NIH should be recruiting volunteers to get vaccinated and intentionally infect themselves or placebo (double blind trials of course), and provide VERY GENEROUS compensation for people who have morbidity/mortality from infection.

For example, paying volunteers $100K and telling someone if they died their family would be compensated $2M and free healthcare for life.

I think this would be ethical, and would even be economically prudent in the long run, if we consider how much human life and $$ could be saved by validating a vaccine ASAP.

Market value to be a corona guinea pig is probable around $100. Far less if you do it in the third world. Someone posted a link above about corona bounty parties (deliberately infecting themselves).

Once upon a time I tried to do elrazor a favor. It appeared that he didn't realize his avtar picture was of a highschool pole vaulter that was famously sexualized as a minor. After pictures of her as a minor went viral people realized they were sexualizing a minor and that put a halt to most of the excitement. You would think he might quietly thank me or have some self awareness that nobody thinks he's a highschool pole vault fan and want to correct his image, but no. Elrazor got upset with me. Apparently that's what doing someone a favor gets you.

Ask him how old the girl pictured in his avtar is...

Lol, you again...

Cliffs for anyone who is interested, as with many other threads he has posted in, Juan got laughed out of the thread never to return.

Amusement starts here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...=#post55654190

Linking things doesn't seem to be your strong suit. Although you assert others lack self awareness, having it pointed out to you that your avtar is of a famously sexualized minor pole vaulting in highschool isn't the best spot to lash out and dig your heels in

This is the actual exchange. Your only white knight is an an old degenerate who had just got caught and failed to angle shoot another 2p2'er. I left because I said what I had to say and the story is fairly straight forward for most people. Like we all understand that time doesn't stop. A minor becomes an adult. The famously sexualized highschool student did in fact become an adult....

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=479

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=480

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=481

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=484

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=485

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=486

One more time. How old is the girl pictured in your avtar?

Getting laughed out of that thread is an achievement. Anyone that is actually intelligent/scientifically literate should in-return get kicked out of there.

I don't blame him for having that stance back in February or early March, but if he was actually listening to any experts he would have changed his opinion at minimum 2+ months ago.

You keep bringing up the CDC failure back in January/February. That was certainly a setback and did not help things, but also has is no longer an excuse for things that are happening now or the cause of the current spikes.

The CDC was failing pretty hard in March and April as well. Of course the CDC originally telling people not to wear masks is still part of the reason people aren't wearing masks now.

Terrible excuse as we've seen the administration commandeer and redistribute masks at will.

Of course they had a choice. Lying about it didn't prevent all of the masks from being bought up anyway. The masks were already long gone. All it did was create distrust of our experts. It painted our health organizations as incompetent liars.

Being honest and saying "look there aren't enough masks to go around but you can make your own homemade masks, here's how, and you should wear them" would have been a hell of a lot better than telling people, at the height of the pandemic (when there wasn't a single mask in stores anyway), that masks aren't necessary and then doing a 180 months later.

They also said wearing masks could be worse than not, because if you don't wear them properly you touch your face more. Now we have everyone wearing masks,putting them on and taking them off every 5 minutes, reusing them, touching their faces constantly, and wearing them improperly. Most of these masks aren't n95 which they've said won't block the virus anyway.

CDC didn't change their recommendation until April, long after lockdowns and 100K had a certain death coming.

The WHO - the world's peak public health body - only changed their recommendation on June 8th, after all the damage was done, and even then not for the general populace but just for the at risk:

Yet Trump is at fault here? He may be in a month or two, but he isn't now - all the deaths so far lay at the feet of incompetent left wing socialist bureaucratic thinking.

It wasn't a "setback", it was the entire reason the pandemic happened despite Trump's early strong actions. If you can't test and trace, the epidemic goes wild, and you end up with Spain rather than Greece. Testing and tracing and isolation is at the very heart of controlling a pandemic. If you can't test, you can't do **** except let it sweep through the entire population, because you have no idea who has it, no way to test their contacts, not even intelligence on if there's substantial community spread and where (the CDC advised in February that there was "no sign of community spread" while tens of thousands of people already had it - because they couldn't test. You can't even lock down, because you have no idea if destroying your economy is necessary with no intelligence on the spread rates.

Everything up until now has been the result of that horrible testing failure by the experts.

If you actually care to know what happened and why (it was a systemic failure across all the left wing US socialist bureaucracies related to health that long predated Trump), have a read of this: National Geographic: Why the Coronavirus Testing Failures Were Inevitable

From the article:

1. Obama proposed regulations stopping private companies making tests. This greatly chilled funding and expertise of private labs on rapid novel test making, and labs went into decline. These regulations had previously been actually used to stop Zika test making by private labs (the left wing socialist bureaucracy wanted to keep it in-house). The private industry had been gutted by this action.

2. The left wing socialist bureaucratic scientists then terribly screwed up the tests, and took weeks to find and fix the problem. This was partly due to expert incompetence, and party due to decades of underfunding; we haven't had a major pandemic in 100 years and people and systems were complacent and simply not geared up to act rapidly. This loss of a month made all the difference.

3. There were shortages in components needed for tests, stopping dead a rapid ramp from sheer lack of materials. Again, doesn't matter for Greece (3 million people, 3% of the US), but matters a lot for a country the size of the US

It's a sad situation but there's noone to blame except the scientists who couldn't do their job at a minimal level of competency, and the expert overseers like Fauci and Birx who had enough experience to know of the flaws in the system, yet failed to take it seriously enough to parallelize test development. If either had said to Trump ("let's open this up to the private sector"), you think private sector loving Trump would have said no? Instead he was likely assured they had it under control and were rapidly ramping tests. And they were until they screwed it up and then it was gg.

I mean, even after they screwed it up, Fauci said this:
Note the lack of a proper apology and urgency. This was a monumental **** up, and he says he's "not sure" it was a mistake, "it would have been nice" and "Monday morning quarterbacking", then excuses the way they did it by saying "well that's always how we've done it!"

Basically, the left wing big government socialist bureaucrats wanted to do corona testing procedure like they had always done testing procedure: developing it in house then roll is out through their own public networks. This is the very worst of expertise: no common sense and no ability to move rapidly or nimbly. That's just how they operate, and there's a strong inertial culture in US bureaucracy. Combined with Obama's crackdown on private testing which had a huge chilling effect on private testing labs in the US, we ended up where we are. None of it had anything to do with Trump.

This was a completely foreseeable screwup and even after the event he's arrogantly unapologetic - even though that foreseeable event happening meant 130K lives and trillions in economic damage. These are the dangerous idiot experts who I've talked about through this entire thread. Yet you blame Trump, it's amazing.

They were already gone. Lying didn't prevent any masks from disappearing.

I read your article you quote can you pls requote where you get this information? Because the only thing I found is this "During the past decade, there’s been an explosion of laboratory-developed tests (especially for genetics), aggressively marketed to physicians and consumers, leading the FDA, in 2014, to propose a more stringent approval process to better ensure patient safety. That guidance was never finalized and was withdrawn in January 2017 as President Barack Obama left office, but the FDA’s cautionary impulse did have a chilling effect on laboratory-developed tests, such as when the agency attempted to block the creation of some tests for the mosquito-borne sickness Zika in 2016. Since Obama left office, the policy has been under Congressional deliberation."

Also from this articles it clearly explain why protester most likely didnt cause

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/26/213006...atter-protests

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ages?_amp=true

"Dr. Otto Yang, a professor of medicine and the associate chief of infectious diseases at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, said he thought L.A. County reopened too quickly."

"Yang said the protests against the death of George Floyd in police custody do not seem be a particularly big factor in the spread of disease. He cited current epidemiological studies that suggest the outdoor nature of the protests, and that many protesters wore masks, limited the spread of the virus."


Here a google search when I put in why protester cause Convid

Do you see a trend?

here is an article first on google search on why mask doesn't help w convid. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/41...-masks-prevent

"We talked to UC San Francisco epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask"

The original CDC guidance partly was based on what was thought to be low disease prevalence earlier in the pandemic, said Chin-Hong.
“So, of course, you’re preaching that the juice isn’t really worth the squeeze to have the whole population wear masks in the beginning – but that was really a reflection of not having enough testing, anyway,” he said. “We were getting a false sense of security.”

Rutherford was more blunt. The legitimate concern that the limited supply of surgical masks and N95 respirators should be saved for health care workers should not have prevented more nuanced messaging about the benefits of masking. “We should have told people to wear cloth masks right off the bat,” he said.


I mean I even did a search specific with fox news in it https://www.foxnews.com/science/face...-mixed-answers

I mean even when they try there best to disapprove of face mask wearing in the article look at what the EDIT has to say.

Editor's Note (June 2 at 11:30 a.m.): One paper discussed in this article has been retracted by the journal the Annals of Internal Medicine, meaning that the paper included mistakes so serious that the findings of the research cannot be trusted. The authors wrote that their statistical methods could not determine whether the findings were reliable, making the results of the small study "uninterpretable." The study had found that surgical and cotton masks do not effectively contain viral droplets containing SARS-CoV-2. Subsequent research has suggested that face masks are an effective method for containing the spread of the virus, used along with staying six feet apart from other people.

There the most balance and fair news in the world has to retracted.