We can blame China for delaying/hiding the true nature of the problem

The world got ****ed hard bc of it

But Trump's leadership has led to more deaths than were necessary. I don't think that's a hard left position. That's just a reflection of reality. We can't just ignore all the nonsense he's spouted over the months. He's literally claiming we should test less. Literally ignoring the value in the use of masks. We have ardent followers who believe in him and every word he says in a cult like manner, not unlike followers who believe in Elon Musk

The US was ****ed anyway and would still have a whole host of problems no matter who was president. However, there is no way anyone can say Trump handled the incoming calamity well. His words are laid bare in black and white. It should not be ignored...

We can't really know how another leader of the US would've handled this, but in case anyone hasn't noticed, Trump winds up talking about himself in pretty much every public appearance he makes. By default, it means his focus is in all the wrong places

Leaders are not supposed to blame everyone else and take no responsibility. They're supposed to lead. I think the left has overblown quite a bit about C19 and yes, they tend to hyperfocus on Trump, but that doesn't mean criticism of him isn't valid. Plenty of it is

Short term that’s right probably right.

But 2 caveats:
1. there have been noticeable exceptions: the Charles De Gaulle, etc.
2. No one knows what long term affects will be.

It's very tough to tell for with confidence but it's quite possible that improved treatment regimens have reduced the IFR significantly. That's not because of new medicine but just a better understanding of how to treat patients.

Now we have some new medicines coming online as well so IFR will hopefully fall considerably.

Trump created the corona task force on Jan 31, and gave them wide powers. The CDC quickly began making and ramping tests. Had they not screwed up the tests so badly, Trump's early action would have:

- Cost lives
- Saved heaps of lives?

Because scientists are too dumb to do a basic job properly, Trump is to blame?

CDC, HHS and US Surgeon General on the use of masks, March 2nd:

World Health Organization, 29th May (the CDC changed their mind):
Trump is to blame here on masks, and not the expert bodies? That's just not rational.

Trump's early action could have stopped it if the CDC didn't screw up.
Yes we can because we have the data Most of Western Europe is far more infected than the US, while having a much easier hand to play in the terms of central government control of policy and response and a centralized, controllable health system.

There's heaps to criticize about Trump. But the hottake that experts got this right and Trump didn't listen/caused it be far worse is a direct inversion of reality. Experts screwed the pooch everywhere multiple times and the leaders (anywhere) barely have any blame as a result.

You mean the task force led by I-don't-believe-in-science Mike Pence?

And who appointed the Director of the CDC?

Very disingenuous to ignore that most of Europe has the virus under control with infections dropping while the US continues to worsen. Also disingenuous to ignore differences in population density. But you aren't known for arguing in good faith now are you, Tooth?

Tooth, you should read the book "fifth risk" by michael lewis - outlines the trump administration approach to transition from the Obama admin in 2016. was pretty eye opening for me.

What's Europe's plan? Spain is allowing free travel, including the UK, with no quarantine. I don't think they're on the road to eradication. It would be nice if our president gave some clear policy and told people to wear a f'ing mask but we do have a bill of rights and it's pretty hard to enforce something like that and tards are gonna tard. We're just going to have to walk our own path and maybe if Florida or Arizona turn into Lombardy there can be a shift in thinking for the population but there's really not much that can be done. Can't just continue to 1/2 ass lockdown forever. Even a radical lockdown by US standards is not going to match Wuhan's lockdown. A lot of people are going to die and there isn't much any politician or scientist can do about it.
The US is just not built to handle this thing correctly and even if it was it's just going to linger around forever anyways.
Even if Trump said and did everything you think he should, there would be some TDS tard politicians on the left that will fight him because god forbid they agree and support anything he does. That's the biggest sickness with the country probably. The only thing they can agree on is handing out trillions of dollars to their super rich buddies and calling it a bailout.

Glad you understand the point of my post. Not much else you said was relevant to it

btw the Coronavirus Task Force is a joke, much like it is laughable that people think Jared Kushner is going to waltz in and broker peace between Israel and Palestine. You do realize Mike Pence was Governor of Indiana, right? They had an AIDS epidemic and he kind of ****ed that up

What evidence do you have the task force was a joke? They took early correct strong actions, until CDC scientists let them down and screwed the entire strategy. I don't think the Fauci and Birx are a joke. Incompetent, sure, and comically wrong about the virus, but also highly respected and 20+ year leaders in their field, so who else would you appoint?

Even if first batch of tests from CDC worked as expected, CDC never had the ability to scale.

We lost a month of private/state lab testing because FDA didn't give that emergency approval until March.

I think it's reasonable to assume part of that delay is due to Trump's, now admitted, desire for fewer tests.

Mike who-cares-if-people-die-from-aids Pence being put at the helm would be a good place to start

Somebody refused the tests provided by who

Yes.

Stay home!

In general, virus's mutate in the other direction. If the virus kills the host, it kills itself. This is basic evolutionary biology.

no

So you're saying longstanding Obama era pandemic protocols were totally flawed? And this is Trump's fault?
So you're saying longstanding Bush (and then Obama) era pandemic protocols where the FDA doesn't allow private labs to make their own tests are Trump's fault? Trump loves private industry, there's zero chance that he would have said no if say Fauci said "The CDC can't handle the volume, we need to open this up to private industry for rapid deployment".
There's no basis for that given that they ramped tests early and hard, and given that the US is testing far more than any other country, as much volume as they can produce.
Another fake news Facebook meme. Surely we are better than this at 2p2? Hard left Trump hating Snopes says:
It's really sick how much deliberate misinformation the left creates and absorbs.

This was 100% a failure of experts in a socialist bureaucratic body to do their basic functions competently. The WHO failed as well, as did many organizations in the Western world. Blaming Trump for this is bananas.

Would you not at the very least agree that Trump's refusal to wear a mask and his part in politicizing them, his constant assertions that the virus was no biggie and would disappear, and his holding rallies against all health advice and common sense... all served to promote more potential spread, at least among his core followers?

Many Trumpkins think the virus is an overblown hoax, mask wearing is dangerous, etc. I suppose you can blame this all on their stupidity and absolve Trump, but that would be incredibly naive. They are sheep and take their cues from their hero. If he got up there, wearing a mask, and said "I'm wearing one to protect my family, and all Americans should do the same", would that not potentially make a difference?

I know I’m beating a dead horse here, but claiming masks are dangerous is the most insane thing I’ve heard during these months on conspiracy theories and nutjobs.

There are 330 million people in the US, kissing, screwing, sitting alongside and chatting to coworkers and clients all day in poorly ventilated workspaces, sharing cramped public transport, speaking to friends and splittling each other, preparing food for others, working in tightly packed factory lines, going to bars. Do I think a few two hour rallies of 20K people matters? No, I don't. They're irrelevant.

Lest you think this is a political thing, I also said that all the riots shouldn't matter much for spread, for the same reason. And they're more prolonged/widespread/pointless than a Trump rally.

As for mandatory mask wearing, I was big fan of it but have become less of one after seeing the results. They work find in Asian shame/social responsibility cultures, but what I've seen around here they're a joke. Most people in service industries have them pulled down most of the time and are constantly fiddling with them/their face with the mask on. People think that a mask makes it ok to go out coughing and sneezing. And so on.

I really don't think it would make a difference. The CDC straight up told people not to wear a mask for months. Then in May the CDC changed its opinion, yet the WHO contradicts them and recommends not wearing a mask unless you care for someone who's at risk (see: my links/quotes above). If the supposed world experts can't even get mask wearing correct, and even straight up tell you NOT TO WEAR ONE for months before disagreeing with themselves, what the **** does the president matter? Should the president have told people to wear masks in March while the CDC advised people not?

Mask wearing has to be mandated to work given how people hate them, and that's on the states/governors/cities. Trump has zero power there.

What should happen across the world re masks is this:

You don’t need to wear a mask when you are out. However, interacting with anyone within 2 meters without a mask will result in an immediate $1000 fine without exception.

It would help start teaching people the time for a mask is specifically WHEN you get together with people, not all alone on the way to meet them and then taking it off so you can talk clearly to them.

If Don was a bit smarter he'd ask for more testing so we could settle at a lower death rate and open things up. Listen to the experts imo.

completely snipping the rest and focusing on just the lol that is this. throwing policy completely out of the window, if Trump came out tomorrow and said mask were effective... if he just simply stated wear them, and then was seen actually wearing them, the effects would be BIGGLY!!!1!

he knows this, though. everybody with half a functioning, intellectually honest brain knows this. the fact that he can't because of a political corner he's backed himself into is problem. claiming he truly thinks or is being informed otherwise is just as culpable.

Exactly. Toothsayer makes a lot of good posts but the argument about Trump and masks he's making is totally disingenuous. He knows if Trump who these white trash hicks worship said masks are important,wearing them correctly was important and wore one himself when near other people these same dipshits who think this is all a hoax would be wearing them. To say allowing 20,000 people go to a rally without requiring masks isn't a big deal is also disingenuous. Those 20,000 people spreading disease is a big deal as it the message it sends to the others who think this is all a hoax to go shopping etc without masks on.

I usually agree with Tooth basic premise that injecting Trump into every single conversation about finance/economics/culture/politics/global events is reductive and 1 man is just easier for people to focus on rather than how systems or institutions work or don't work.

But yes, Trump could've sold the seriousness of the rona much better and people would've listened. Absurd people aren't wearing masks down south (although if they were, they probably stay home more thus hurting bottom lines and he likely knows this)