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Old 06-28-2020, 11:52 PM   #36776
djevans
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by case3 View Post
Didn't say any of that, if you are getting emotional now on these there is limited hope. Step back and understand how Defi works:

1) Create a over-collateralized elaborate structure, woven through webs of interlocking smart contracts, markets, oracles, other tokens and smart contracts.

2) Pump them to users

3) Hope there are no vulnerabilities

When someone exploits the market bid depth limit token variable to momentarily jam the oracle price, allowing them to trade a huge block against themselves for a sub market rate and effectively drain the value out what happens? Can you can go back to all the past blowups and explain the technical issue that allowed the exploit, and how the fix (adding another layer of complication) didn't simply create more vulnerabilities.

You can use these and they can pay out, and you will also have no idea (youtube doesn't fix this) how safe your money is.
I'm not getting emotional but I risked 1 BTC on it. That is $9000 and while not a lot of money it is still something I don't wanna lose.

I understand there is a risk - but is it a risk i'm willing to take? Is the risk greater than 5% it fails in 1 year? Then i'm -EV. What do you think the risk of putting your coins in a market like this is and what sources do you have?
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:29 AM   #36777
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by LOLOL View Post
Because crypto owners are being targeted for heightened IRS scruitiny due to its involvement in bad things and the (near) total inability of the system to track/account for it using other regulatory methods (ie, a brokerage account kicking off a 1099)

You're naive.
Do you know how the IRS works?

So your saying the IRS is trying to track people involved in crypto. And there for the crypto users are being targeted because they use crypto and make money on it?

Ya, that's some bullshit.
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:36 AM   #36778
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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I have a serious question if you really comprehend the functionality, utility and liquidity that makes up the crypto currency world... not the fractional alt coin world.

These things are being used on a daily basis... RIGHT NOW. These things aren't coming, they are already here. XRP is being used to exchange value world wide in seconds versus 5 days under the current international banking system... developers are building dapps on decentralized blockchain networks in huge numbers right now and etherium owns more than 85% of that market.

Do you know what an Oracle is? Do you understand the ability of something like XRP's ability to reduce the friction cause by the current nature of exchanging assets between variable markets? Do you realize that major investment houses on wall street are now adding bitcoin to their portfolios?

The ability to leverage and borrow coins against themselves and other alt coins does not occur on the major market capitalized entities...
Nobody uses XRP.

I find it laughable the creators of XRP had to bring on more investors because the money they raised from selling XRP no longer supported XRP like it was ****ing suppose to.They need more money to do that?!?!?!?!

This is what makes BTC so beautiful. It's just so poetic with no creator and all.
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:51 AM   #36779
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

The risk is hard to define, 5% is usually a defined risk type of return for most people. To start, look at:

> Past reliability of similarly structured products
> Incentives that exist for promoters, users, attackers, etc
> Apply a general model of fragility, has there ever been a 'stable' decentralized product that didn't break?
> Recourse and expected recovery rates when something happens
> Buffer for unknowns that are outside your ability to model/understand
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:03 AM   #36780
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by case3 View Post
The risk is hard to define, 5% is usually a defined risk type of return for most people. To start, look at:

> Past reliability of similarly structured products
> Incentives that exist for promoters, users, attackers, etc
> Apply a general model of fragility, has there ever been a 'stable' decentralized product that didn't break?
> Recourse and expected recovery rates when something happens
> Buffer for unknowns that are outside your ability to model/understand
Whenever someone talks like this I check out. I think I'm smart enough to know I'm not just dumb to not understand the words your touting
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Old 06-29-2020, 06:45 AM   #36781
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Why are all the bitcoin non believers frothing from their mouth when talking about it?
Are they so benevolent that they waste months of their own free time just to educate us and help us get out of the ponzi?
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:10 AM   #36782
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

To be fair more Bitcoin believers are frothing from their mouth when defending it, most non believers are just dismissive and making arrogant remarks about volatility and governments shutting it down.
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:15 AM   #36783
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by Dace View Post
Why are all the bitcoin non believers frothing from their mouth when talking about it?
They hate us caus they aint us
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:56 AM   #36784
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by Mat Cauthon View Post
To be fair more Bitcoin believers are frothing from their mouth when defending it, most non believers are just dismissive and making arrogant remarks about volatility and governments shutting it down.
Believers can gain something by frothing (spread the word, more adoption). Non believers gain zero (unless they are short). Actually they lose their valuable time in life for no reason so it's massively -EV for them. So they are stupider then we thought.
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Old 06-29-2020, 10:11 AM   #36785
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemoretimes View Post
Believers can gain something by frothing (spread the word, more adoption). Non believers gain zero (unless they are short). Actually they lose their valuable time in life for no reason so it's massively -EV for them. So they are stupider then we thought.
can't tell if a level
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:49 AM   #36786
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace View Post
Why are all the bitcoin non believers frothing from their mouth when talking about it?
Are they so benevolent that they waste months of their own free time just to educate us and help us get out of the ponzi?
This is a question that gets posed in this thread from time to time and Iíve never seen anyone give a satisfactory answer. Would any of the posters here that hate Bitcoin mind explaining why they donít just opt out of the whole space?

There are many, many crypto currencies that I think are complete garbage. Even very large ones with huge market caps... but I canít imagine going into the XRP subreddit and announcing that I think it sucks. Why would I go into the altcoin thread to say XYZ coin is a scam when I can just ignore it instead with zero time or money spent?

I donít believe in elves, but I canít imagine ever saying those words to anyone (outside of this one sentence here) because it costs me nothing to just live my life under the assumption that they donít exist. I donít need to defend my position and Iím not mad at anyone for believing in elves. I can just happily exist, and even buy coffee in an elf-free world.
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:10 PM   #36787
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Fresh defi hack in today, an example of the general point I was trying to make:

Quote:
got a FlashLoan of 104k WETH from dYdX. These funds were used to swap WETH to STA token back and forth 24 times which drained STA balance from the pool and it became 1 weiSTA (0.000000000000000001 STA). It was possible because Balancer Pool contract keeps track of token balances in the contract and STA token had a deflationary model with transfer fee of 1% charged from a recipient, thus resulted in transfer() and transferFrom() misbehaviour. So every time the attacker swapped WETH to STA, the Balancer Pool received 1% less STA than was expected.
then

Quote:
As the next step, the attacker swapped 1 weiSTA to WETH multiple times. Due to STA token transfer fee implementation, the pool never received STA but released WETH regardless. The same step was repeated to drain WBTC, SNX and LINK token balances from the pool.
finally

Quote:
As the final step, the attacker repaid FlashLoan of 104k WETH to dYdX. The hacker rapidly increased his share in Balancer Pool by depositing a few weiSTAs. Then he swapped collected Balancer Pool token to 136k STA via Uniswap V2, and then he swapped 136k STA to 109 WETH again.
Saying no one here can understand these things isn't a personal attack, not does it imply I do. It shows the inherent complexity behind these that naturally creates systems no one is really capable of controlling. Same concept applies to BTC as well as some shady alt defi setup.
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:38 PM   #36788
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

DeFi yield farming is nothing more than leveraged gambling and has nothing to do with Bitcoin. Please stick to being paper short Bitcoin only here please.
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Old 06-29-2020, 10:06 PM   #36789
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Flash: China gets busted for having 83 metric tonnes of gold bullion that was nothing more than plated copper ingots.
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Old 06-30-2020, 03:53 AM   #36790
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchu18 View Post
Flash: China gets busted for having 83 metric tonnes of gold bullion that was nothing more than plated copper ingots.

Plated copper ingots have real world utility.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:14 AM   #36791
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

China did them a favor.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:45 AM   #36792
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

it wasn't China but a Chinese company that used it as loan collateral

but it did take me down a scary rabbit hole...
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...552840305.html
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Old 06-30-2020, 06:34 AM   #36793
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
it wasn't China but a Chinese company that used it as loan collateral

Reports say the founder of the company was a former high ranking PLA crony who can basically do anything with tacit impunity from the CCP nowadays (unconfirmed).

tl;dr

BTC > Ingots


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:09 AM   #36794
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

I donít get it, are ingots less shiny than gold?
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:19 AM   #36795
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

I like bitcoin but 1 thing is stopping me from seeing mass adoption and that is the "seed phrase" or in other words keeping your bitcoins safe and secure.

If a hacker or thief gets your phrase, you will lose all your money.

I just can't see bitcoin ever catching on. You'd be worried all the time if you had anything significant stored.

Not only that, there are several other things such as your wallet/computer/phone simply getting hacked.

You could potentially lose your seed phrase. And if you can't run to anyone when all your money is suddenly gone, well, honestly I just don't see people using it...

Just seems that too many things can go wrong, which is why this won't catch on for 99% of people. End of the day people are stupid, there's just no way they are doing all this complicated stuff.

Crypto banks might be a possibility, similar to what we have now.

I still think it will be around for a while and fill in some niche store of value for the rich. People like to trade it and if the volatility continues, I see no reason why people won't continue to trade it. But mass adoption, they really need to come up with a better solution to keep your money safe.
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Old 06-30-2020, 10:15 AM   #36796
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Multisig is extremely powerful. It's just so early with regards to multisig solutions yet, but it doesn't take that much creativity to come up with robust solutions for key management that way.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:20 PM   #36797
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jackal21 View Post
I like bitcoin but 1 thing is stopping me from seeing mass adoption and that is the "seed phrase" or in other words keeping your bitcoins safe and secure.

If a hacker or thief gets your phrase, you will lose all your money.

I just can't see bitcoin ever catching on. You'd be worried all the time if you had anything significant stored.

Not only that, there are several other things such as your wallet/computer/phone simply getting hacked.

You could potentially lose your seed phrase. And if you can't run to anyone when all your money is suddenly gone, well, honestly I just don't see people using it...

Just seems that too many things can go wrong, which is why this won't catch on for 99% of people. End of the day people are stupid, there's just no way they are doing all this complicated stuff.

Crypto banks might be a possibility, similar to what we have now.

I still think it will be around for a while and fill in some niche store of value for the rich. People like to trade it and if the volatility continues, I see no reason why people won't continue to trade it. But mass adoption, they really need to come up with a better solution to keep your money safe.
I think you are missing the entire point... there ALREADY is mass adoption of bitcoin as a store of value.

Also, the idea of a... 'crypto bank'... goes against everything the block was developed for. Defi or decentralized finance has no centralized control points and it's a peer to peer transaction or smart contract.

And before you say bitcoin is far to limited, each bitcoin was designed to mimic golds valuation and is fractional by nature... the smallest fraction thereof is one satoshi or .00000001 of a bitcoin.

I'm already closing in on owning my second full coin... and if it drops to 7,000 OR 3000, I will fill up with more.

Last edited by MSchu18; 06-30-2020 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:25 PM   #36798
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
it wasn't China but a Chinese company that used it as loan collateral

but it did take me down a scary rabbit hole...
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...552840305.html
No single company owns 80+ tonnes of gold bullion.
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Old 06-30-2020, 05:30 PM   #36799
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by Irieguy View Post
This is a question that gets posed in this thread from time to time and Iíve never seen anyone give a satisfactory answer. Would any of the posters here that hate Bitcoin mind explaining why they donít just opt out of the whole space?

There are many, many crypto currencies that I think are complete garbage. Even very large ones with huge market caps... but I canít imagine going into the XRP subreddit and announcing that I think it sucks. Why would I go into the altcoin thread to say XYZ coin is a scam when I can just ignore it instead with zero time or money spent?

I donít believe in elves, but I canít imagine ever saying those words to anyone (outside of this one sentence here) because it costs me nothing to just live my life under the assumption that they donít exist. I donít need to defend my position and Iím not mad at anyone for believing in elves. I can just happily exist, and even buy coffee in an elf-free world.
A++ post
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Old 06-30-2020, 05:34 PM   #36800
rickroll
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Re: Bitcoins - digital currency

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Originally Posted by MSchu18 View Post
No single company owns 80+ tonnes of gold bullion.
correct, it was gold plated copper

they also defrauded chinese banks and insurers as well and those certainly are government
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