Bitcoins - digital currency - Page 1224 - Business, Finances and Investing Forum

Marketdepth (liquidity) should be factored in to marketcap somehow. Dentacoin had $108k volume last 24h, and BTC had $4.2 billion. So you could easily completely tank Dentacoin with a little bit of money.

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09-20-2018 , 05:21 AM

#30577

Pinkmann

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 1,487

Then you wouldn't have market cap anymore, you'd have a useless number.

Market depth isn't volume. You could have a situation where the order book is packed but not many trades going happening.

Either way, you can crash any market with enough money. Dentacoin is so ******ed anyway it deserves it.

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09-20-2018 , 05:39 AM

#30578

eddymitchel

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 6,761

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMVP

Some of us do - onchainfx.com

Most overvalued coin is probably XLM.

Although Dentacoin, the coin for dentists, is sitting at a fully diluted cap of 2 billy.

Calling a coin overvalued is super difficult(maybe not Dentacoin or some obvious scam)
IBM is working on a stablecoin project with XLM, how do you value that. It could be huge like it could be nothing at all but its still a big legit player interested by the platform.

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09-20-2018 , 06:02 AM

#30579

Do0rDoNot

adept

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 833

No coins have any real value beyond what you can do with them that you cant do with evil fiat. Ie: drugs child porn and hitmen

That's the thing I dont get. You bulls say money that you can use to trade for G&S has no value but digital money does. Makes no sense.

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09-20-2018 , 06:11 AM

#30580

Pinkmann

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 1,487

The words value, useless, worthless mean so many different things to different people. Especially when people say "real value" or "intrinsic value" it just comes down to personal opinion. Its all a big circle jerk.

stupid bulls - "fiat is worthless and/or useless"

bears - "bitcoin is worthless and/or useless"

Obviously both statements are totally false. Stuff is worth what its worth in USD/EUR/etc and thats the end of it. Even something as stupid as dentacoin has value as defined by its market price, although I doubt it provides the world with many trips to the dentist.

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09-20-2018 , 06:33 AM

#30581

CoolTimer

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,029

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkmann

Market cap is kinda useless with these market depths. There are very few coins who can handle a high volume selloff. Surely there are exceptions with hidden order books, but this is def not the rule.

Look at bitmain, they can't sell their bcash for a reason. They would crash their entire market.

I think you would have a way more reliable metric if you take market depth into account. Surely you'll always have errors, but especially a lot of the smaller coins marketcaps will be more realistic.

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09-20-2018 , 06:39 AM

#30582

CoolTimer

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,029

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkmann

As a bull I'd gladly take your fiat. Fiat isn't worthless and/or useless at all. It is flawed.

And I completely agree that value is subjective. Saying something has no value, when other people obviously attach value to it (by paying a price for it) is dumb. Saying dentacoin will have no value in the future is pretty obvious though.

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09-20-2018 , 07:50 AM

#30583

eddymitchel

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 6,761

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoolTimer

Look at bitmain, they can't sell their bcash for a reason. They would crash their entire market.

If you want to talk about overvalued coin and huge bubble in light of the hilarious bitmain IPO, bcash is a prime suspect.

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09-20-2018 , 08:30 AM

#30584

NewOldGuy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot

No coins have any real value beyond what you can do with them that you cant do with evil fiat. Ie: drugs child porn and hitmen.

No. Differentiation is only a small part of the value of alternatives in anything.

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09-20-2018 , 08:32 AM

#30585

fozzy71

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 38,192

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Originally Posted by MerginHosOn24s

no i'm saying coinbase previously allowed me to sell my BTC by sending BTC directly to an address for my "USD Wallet". it was great for quickly converting small amounts of BTC to USD and having it in my bank account within 2 business days...particularly when the mining fees were ultra high, confirmations took a long time, and/or the BTC price was fluctuating dramatically. it allowed you to lock in the sale price immediately, instead of having to wait hours for a transaction to confirm before you could sell the coins.

i did this as recently as June.

today I log into coinbase and I click on my USD wallet....there is no longer an option to receive funds or to show the address for the wallet. i spoke to support on the phone and she confirmed that the USD wallet can no longer receive funds from an external wallet.

I used mine on 05Sept and still see it in my accounts on the browser/site.

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09-20-2018 , 08:47 AM

#30586

Do0rDoNot

adept

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 833

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewOldGuy

No. Differentiation is only a small part of the value of alternatives in anything.

It seems to me differentiation is the only thing that sets anything apart from anything else, and the only possible thing that could lend something greater value than something else.

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09-20-2018 , 09:54 AM

#30587

stinkypete

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,783

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoolTimer

Marketdepth (liquidity) should be factored in to marketcap somehow.

I see lots of crypto people saying this and it's a perfect example of crypto people not understanding market cap.

Make your own metrics for valuing a coin if you want, but don't call it market cap.

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09-21-2018 , 03:48 AM

#30588

CoolTimer

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,029

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkypete

I see lots of crypto people saying this and it's a perfect example of crypto people not understanding market cap.

Make your own metrics for valuing a coin if you want, but don't call it market cap.

I understand what marketcap means, that's not rocket science. You can call a new metric whatever you want, calling it marketcap will indeed be confusing.

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09-21-2018 , 07:45 AM

#30589

stinkypete

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,783

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoolTimer

I understand what marketcap means, that's not rocket science.

It is tho to the guy who runs coinmarketcap.com and everyone else in crypto

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09-21-2018 , 08:44 AM

#30590

CoolTimer

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,029

Ok, I'll bite. Enlighten us with your definition of market cap please.

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09-22-2018 , 07:10 PM

#30591

NewOldGuy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot

It seems to me differentiation is the only thing that sets anything apart from anything else, and the only possible thing that could lend something greater value than something else.

But you've now changed your point to "greater value". You first said it had no equivalent value as an alternative to dollars at all, only the value of the differentiation. Maybe you misspoke, but that was just wrong. Generally more choices in a market increases the size of the whole market, they don't simply cannibalize the incumbent. You can have many valuable alternatives of equal utility in a market. When those choices all stop having any differentiation then it becomes a commodity market.

Last edited by NewOldGuy; 09-22-2018 at 07:39 PM.

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09-25-2018 , 12:59 PM

#30592

zplusz

banned

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 656

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didace

If people purchased 20% less than they do now it would be devastating for the economy in the short term

In the long term, this would be extremely beneficial as people start looking towards a longer time horizon as they did in the past. How many people do you know that spent a bunch of money on the holidays on crap they don't need? This is how an economy is supposed to work? What's the end game?

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09-25-2018 , 06:29 PM

#30593

Didace

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 19,877

Quote:

Originally Posted by zplusz

Yes.

And there is no end game other than everyone eventually dies. I really don't know what you mean by that.

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09-25-2018 , 11:02 PM

#30594

housenuts

1st Quartiled the 500

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 49,717

I think the easiest way to explain the people need to spend money for the economy to work is this:

Assume it costs $10 for a gallon of milk. But if you can mass produce, it only costs $50 for 10 gallons of milk.

If the population is spending money and buying 10 gallons total, on average it only costs $5 per gallon. However if people aren't spending and the benefits of mass production is no longer available, then it costs $10 per gallon. At the higher price, people are even less likely to be able to afford it. It creates a downwards effect.

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09-26-2018 , 02:50 AM

#30595

CoolTimer

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,029

Quote:

Originally Posted by housenuts

But the thing is, in this case, people don't really value milk all that much, and that's fine. It's not fine for the milk producers and employees, but in general nobody cares. Maybe people rather drink water than milk in this scenario, it's cheaper and healthier.

Now replace milk with overpriced energydrinks, or any colourful drink. If people tend towards saving instead of spending they might not buy any of this. So what?

The money people save will go towards carefully weighted investments instead, which hopefully add value to society.

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09-26-2018 , 02:53 AM

#30596

CoolTimer

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,029

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09-26-2018 , 03:12 AM

#30597

Pinkmann

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 1,487

Stop living in utopia dream land. Jobs are what add value to society, and wasteful consumer spending is just how people get and stay employed. Its bad for stupid people and bad for the environment.

Monster Beverage has 3k employees, Coca Cola 62k, Pepsi 263k. That isn't even scratching the surface of companies that sell stuff we don't "need". I mean ffs if we only had jobs that CT thought brought value to the world we would be sitting around doing nothing and a lot more people would be in living in poverty.

You people saying the current system is wrong sound like a bunch of stoned hippies sitting around a drum circle.

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09-26-2018 , 03:42 AM

#30598

Do0rDoNot

adept

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 833

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewOldGuy

But you've now changed your point to "greater value".

I changed what I said? Hmmm don't think so

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No coins have any real value beyond what you can do with them that you cant do with evil fiat. Ie: drugs child porn and hitmen.

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You first said it had no equivalent value as an alternative to dollars at all, only the value of the differentiation.

It has negative equivalent value for the goods and services both fiat and crypto has access to, because it costs a fortune to acquire and use. Fiat is free. It has positive differential value in markets you can't use fiat in (ie: online drug markets, which you have to convert fiat to bitcoin anyway)

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Maybe you misspoke, but that was just wrong. Generally more choices in a market increases the size of the whole market, they don't simply cannibalize the incumbent. You can have many valuable alternatives of equal utility in a market. When those choices all stop having any differentiation then it becomes a commodity market.

Ya but crypto doesn't have equal utility. It has negative relative utility. I can't pay for much with crypto actually. And what I can pay for with it I pay a premium.

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09-26-2018 , 03:57 AM

#30599

CoolTimer

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,029

Quote:

Jobs are what add value to society,

Ah, the good old labor theory of value.

"The labor theory of value (LTV) is a theory of value that argues that the economic value of a good or service is determined by the total amount of "socially necessary labor" required to produce it, rather than by the use or pleasure its owner gets from it (demand) and its scarcity value (supply)."

So if something costs X to produce, you think it should be worth X... This is not how it works. This has been tried in a lot of communist country's and failed over and over.