McAfee has his work cut out for him to hit his #.

I think his newest is over 15k in June?

The bear argument isn't that peoples demand for it doesn't exist in the present, it's that the future demand from actual use cases is less than the sum of current demand from use case and speculation. The bull argument is that the demand from use case is smaller now than it will be in the future.

The fact that transaction volume has tended to correlate positively with price tells you almost nothing about the underlying value - it tells you that the new information that was brought to light has historically tended to be perceived as positive. You would find the same relationship in basically any industry that had that kind of a meteoric rise regardless of whether it later ended up seeing sustained growth or bubbled.



If cryptos become less and less expensive to transact it will only be a good thing for consumers but unless they can get the costs lower than cc's/debit it's not going to become a dominant transaction medium. Do you see that happening? The marginal costs for cc/debt is really quite low (inflated mostly due to fraud protection services)

I have no idea what the tech limitations are wrt to transaction costs of coins but everything i've read has suggested that it's not going to get much better than it is now.

So is every bull.

Maybe the bulls are right but as it stands very little of the value is driven by use cases in the present.

We're all just speculating on the equivalent of an IPO for a pre-revenue company that has nothing proprietary and at the moment does nothing better than it's competitors.

And those who have the heart and commitment to see past those minor shortcomings are the ones who'll reap the rewards when the dust settles.

I think he is correct in sense that BTC will hit 1 million but not as soon as he thinks. Didn't he say by 2020? Most bullish analysis says 30k-100k around that time frame. He is going to be eating his d for sure.

15K in June is pretty presumptuous without huge market manipulation.

Yeah I dont believe that either.

Your numbers are unbelievably off. Maker fees are 0% on numerous exchanges (ofc you cite the most expensive exchange to suit your argument), and sending money on transferwise takes like 5 business days lol and is subject to transfer limits. Also 0.5% is ridic higher fee than Bitcoin transfers except when the network is clogged, but that will be solved with sidechains and/or lightning. GL sending $50k on transferwise for $10c and arriving within 10 minutes.

edit: Oh, and good luck opening a bank account in a foreign country as a US citizen without a work visa.

But I guess you would know better than all the poker players in Vegas for the WSOP who are using Bitcoin to transfer money overseas, obviously.

You and others above saying this is just hilarious. It seems that bitcoiners have a fundamental misunderstanding of how markets work. Not surprising given that most of you are broke losers who don't trade, but still. Apply a little logic to what a 0% maker/0.3% taker fee means. Hint it doesn't mean you pay 0% as a maker.

5 business days? WTF are you talking about? I transfer international currency for 0.1% next day with CurrencyFair. I've done it many times, from transferring to my French bank account to paying a parking ticket in Switzerland to paying for a Croatian villa rental in in kuna. It seems people who tout bitcoin have no ****ing clue how easy and cheap it is to send money internationally. No wonder you think Bitcoin is some amazing new tech that crushes the existing system and is going to moon. No, it doesn't. You're 10 years behind on tech. Bitcoin is worse than the existing options. I'm the classic bitcoin guy - traveler, tech savvy, not afraid of risk, known about bitcoin for years, not afraid of volatility (I trade weekly expiring stock options), yet I can find no use for bitcoin. It's for gamblers and illegal activities and ponzi, not much else.
Sure, but that's bitcoin -> bitcoin. And currency services don't cost 0.5%.

Again, that doesn't give me something I can use locally without further fees.
Piece of cake, did it with a tourist visa way faster than a Coinbase signup.

Gee, how did the WSOP function without bitcoin? And yes, I do. I've transacted in far more countries than maybe 99% of people in this thread. Bitcoin is nice for nasty illegal activities and gray activities such as gambling. It's not good for much else.

Will people stop responding to me so I can take a break from this thread?

You ignored my last reply to you, so I figured you already were taking that break. You probably should stop posting here because you make it more and more apparent how little you understand about bitcoin, exchanges, and the fees that are involved.

hahahaha it must be so painful to have gotten it so wrong the past 5 years

now you just vomit lies in walls of texts because you're in denial about missing the biggest money making opportunity since ****ing ever. Want to see receipts of my transferwise transactions to prove you're wrong? Ya, maker fees are not 0%, i'm totally not selling Bitcoin without fees. WSOP players are stupid for using Bitcoin instead of the amazing cross-border payment services offered by banks, and FATCA isn't causing thousands of Americans to be disqualified from opening bank accounts abroad because your anecdotal experience proves the contrary.

how many times did you threaten to stop posting ITT? oh right, you can't stay away beacuse you're in denial of missing the FOMO looooooll.

I ignored it because it was so stupid. You basically double down on the stupid. For the very slow (you wrt bitcoin) - with 0.3% taker/0% maker the maker doesn't get to change his bitcoins for nothing. If that was the case, no one would ever be a taker in any market. If you think really long and hard about this simple fact, a light bulb might go on about how your conversions aren't actually free.
What have I gotten so wrong? I called it strong buy at $250, twice.
Seriously? Vomit lies? You're a little unhinged bro.

Why would I be mad? I called Bitcoin a strong buy, twice, at $250, and a short at $17500. Had I wanted to get in on bitcoin, don't you think I would have? Who the hell doesn't buy their own "strong buy" recommendation?

The stock market is full of better money making opportunities than Bitcoin, especially at these levels. If you're a povvo and you shoved your $500 networth into bitcoin five years ago and now have $30K, good for you, but you guys haven't gotten rich. Plenty of you are underwater and have gotten whipsawed because you kept buying at $20K on the starry eyed bull**** of the loser bulls.

Bitcoin has been around since 2009. Transferwise started in 2011. WTF? And just because you don't know how to use currency services properly and pay 0.5% like a cuck, isn't my fault. Plenty of people pay 3% on bitcoin conversions as well. Like I said, the stupid in bitcoin/currency transfers and the smart in bitcoin/transfers pay about the same. That's not even debatable. This whole thing started because housenuts claimed minimum 15% on currency transfers of $200, while bitcoin is near free. I called bull**** and said they're about the same. I'm right, everyone disagreeing is wrong. Shocker?

For you as well (another genius) - if you can fill at market reliably while being a maker, why would anyone be a taker? You haven't really thought this through, bro.

When you have to caricature your opponent's position this badly, you know you're failing. Of course bitcoin is good for gamblers and kiddie porn lovers. Do you enjoy lighting 25 gallons of gasoline on fire and releasing 400kg of CO2 to do that transfer, bro?
Threaten? I did so out of kindness for the sanity of the (rather deranged - read your post) bulls. Hearing things like "lightning network doesn't scale and is pure bull**** being sold to you" and "bitcoin isn't actually scarce" and "fiat money isn't what your deranged looney imagining think it to be" has helped a lot of the saner bulls have more rational views of bitcoin, while sending the fruit loops into a tail spin. Two birds, one stone.

No, I was staying away (hadn't made a comment for days), but you chose to bring up an old argument from many days ago and quote me, self-owning in the process. I'm sorry I cause you such cognitive dissonance. Bitcoin seems to be your girlfriend and your personal Jesus judging by how emotional you get.

Here's a hint: No, it isn't a world savior. No, it's not going to make the world better - it's already making it worse except for a few selfish young fringe males who can no gamble a little easier. No, fiat isn't flawed in the weird silver-bug-like ways you guys imagine in your ignorance of economics. Be a bitcoin bull if you want, but at least be sane about it. It's not saving anyone, it's not really helping anyone except fringe activities (illegal, gambling), it's not making the world a better place, and it's not good for much in terms of mainstream use, even less so if it gets more users. I'm sorry that causes you to have an emotional meltdown. Probably a sign you need to step back a little.

Anyway, why did you respond? Are you having FOMO about my posts?

You're the furthest thing from a classic bitcoin guy. In the genesis block is inscribed "Chancellor on brink of another bailout for banks." That's the whole reason this project was started. To have a way for us to transfer value amongst ourselves, those that want to. You state yourself where you made all your $ from. Trading in the funky markets. Obviously you are completely oblivious and biased toward the system that you made a lot of $ from. Just because you personally benefited from it doesn't mean it's the best thing for everyone. Obviously all these people are becoming interested in it for a reason, maybe, just maybe, they are losing their trust in centralized institutions, which would include central banks which you're so fond of.

That's great, good for you, I hope you make a lot of $ and are happy. That will never change the fact that I enjoy using Bitcoin and find it a fun, interesting experiment. You just don't get why a lot of people are in it.

The project was started for someone to get rich. Similar ideas as get rich schemes (bitgold) have been floated long before the financial crisis by the same creators. Szabo has been floating Bit Gold - identical to bitcoin - since '98. You've been conned by the ponzi creator into making him very rich. The aura of mystery, the genesis block inscription, it's mind-candy for the nutty silver bulls. You've been psyopped, bro.

I love the irony of hating centralization and then transferring half of the world's money assets (should bitcoin take over world finance) to a handful of tech guys who got in early. Not to mention 10% for the inventor. That's kind of funny. Kind of the opposite of fair or decentralized for the poor guy in Africa who has to buy in last when the Internet arrives.
Yes, because it's going up and because they can do illegal stuff with it
I don't like banks. I don't like centralization. I would love a system like bitcoin that actually worked. I'd be onboard in a heartbeat. Give me a:

- Fast
- Secure
- Cheap
- Not environmentally destructive
- Scalable
- Reliable

Value transfer system (maybe a quantum coin that'll send bitcoin to zero overnight when invented?) and I'll be onboard overnight.

Question for you: what percentage of people are buying bitcoin purely for its mainstream use case, how many for ponzi-like speculation, how many for its grey/illegal use case? I contend that the numbers are 5%/85%/10%.

I'm a libertarian so I totally get why the 1% of the population who are that way love it too. I'm more interested in bitcoin from an investing perspective, since this is Business, Finance, Investing and not r/Bitcoin. And investing means mainstreaming. How, why and when will it mainstream? What does it replace? Is fiat flawed in a way that Bitcoin fixes? Can it scale? This is the stuff I talk about.

Bitcoin solves a major privacy problem with the movement of money. A major motivation of governments to have KYC rules is that they want to stop tax evasion and money laundering.

But a good economic argument can be made that KYC rules actually cost the government money in lost tax revenue. The reason is because they hinder the velocity of money in an ultimate sense. It is similar to the TSA security at airports. 99.999999999999999 percent of flights have no terrorism or other risk for passengers. Yet people in the United States have had 100's of million of hours added unto their time at airports to help prevent a problem that is incredibly rare. And what is so special about airports anyway? Besides crowds of people an airport isn't that special of a target. There are holes all over the system. Terrorists could attack any one of a hundred other locations with large quantities of people.

Toothsayer saying that we should restrict Bitcoin because it makes it easier to fund child porn, would be like saying we should ban cars because it makes it easier to transport victims of child porn around. Or that people should stop having children because their existence causes child porn to be possible. The USD is used to fund terrorism as well and child porn too. And every other bad thing.

The government is sensationalizing the level of risk in things to justify its budget and the extension of power into our lives. So old people have to go through body scanners and have their shoes checked for plastic explosives. They want you to eliminate your judgement and common sense so that you assume that a 90 year old woman born in Nebraska is just as much of a threat as a 20 year old from Saudi Arabia visiting the country on a student visa while taking flight lessons.

The government should not protect any economic participant from competitive technology in perpetuity. It can help them adjust but when it allows rent seeking and parasitic entrancement by entities like banks and even itself, it lowers the ultimate standard of living for everyone.

It isn't just money that makes people wealthy. It is the system that contributes a big part to how wealthy they actually are. For instance, you could give a million dollars to everyone in the prison system, but if they aren't allowed to leave the system then their newfound wealth can't be used to change their conditions. A truly wealthy society is faster, better, smarter, and more efficient. This standard has to apply to every industry and frustration that people experience. From toll booths, to governments, to banks. Sure, people might call that standard too lavish. But ultimately it's the condition we should strive for society to achieve.

Bitcoin is a pretty big deal for the travel industry especially. Tourism companies should be accepting Bitcoin. If I travel I spend money without being concerned about foriegn exchange costs and I can also have access to as much money as I need to without having to worry about arbitrary limits imposed on me by my bank. With Bitcoin all I need is my passport and a destination with a few bitcoin atms and businesses that accept it before I can hop on a plane. No travelers checks etc. It makes money universal. That's a huge appeal to me.

Bitcoin is the first world currency. I can go to almost any place in the world and spend it and I don't have to worry about bringing money on planes etc. It's exciting to think about.

ROFL! That's why satoshi's coins have never moved! Cuz he started it to get rich! ROFL! This is the funniest bit of "logic" I've ever heard!

You don't even know who the founder really was, and what the true purpose of this was. But I do.

Why is it that I know more about the past, present and future of bitcoin than all of the bulls/bitcoin lovers? It's weird.

Anyway, since it appears that bulls can't put things together and appear to be shiny eyed naive children who swallow the bitcoin Truths like a cult member swallows his cult's sacred truths, I'll have to spell it out for you:
You think he hasn't mined and cashed out hundreds of millions at least? lolol if so. You would of course have no way of knowing...

This is from 2014:
One of the very early players cashed out a big chunk (current worth $450 million) at the highs right before Mt Gox crashed. There has been plenty of spending from the early days.

This "Satoshi never spent any of his coins" and "didn't do this to get rich" is on par in mind numbing ******edness with belief in the virgin birth. Yet people believe it. Amazing.

If you've ever listened to Craig Wright (a potential Satoshi) talk about bitcoin and the power he's sitting on, it comes across that wealth and power are obviously the reasons for these early guys. Like they are for most people. They aren't saints, in fact are no different to Wall Street bankers, which is why they've sat on the coins (and spent later mining) rather than give them away.

Maybe Satoshi is dead and his coins will never move?

Odds are small that he's dead. Less than middle aged man in the prime of his life and with a sharp mind = less than 1 in 50 he's dead.

Oh lord, the irony. My sides!

You DO understand Bitcoin better than most bulls, but this paragraph is completely insane. I don't understand how you can have fallen for the ramblings of that psychopath fraud.

Ah, so the btc market is efficient, is it? So is the btc value $600, where it was just a couple years ago, $7000 where it is now, or $19,000 where it was just within the last year? And what fundamentals have supported these massive shifts in market value?

The market value has been based to a significant degree on speculation and gambling. While there's nothing wrong with that, the notion that the market 'values' btc in some efficient manner strikes me as ludicrous given the massive price gyrations not based on any fundamentals.

Popularity of a scarce asset is raising and so is the price with it, when most exchanges couldnt handle the sheer influx of customers end of 2017 why is understanding the price changes that hard.

If it's so easy for you then explain its price at $600, $19,000, and $7,000.

When a lot of people are buying price get up, when people sell massively it goes down?
When an asset that gets hyped by mainstream media is owned by less than 30 Million people worldwide with a very limited supply with a huge influx of buyers outbidding each other explaining the ATH is not that difficult, now the crash is probably a mix of MTGox dumping a lot of BTC and a natural correction that gets amplified by a lot of randoms who get scared by the correction.

Now if you want to talk about random altcoins getting pumped and dumped on random shady small exchanges that's another subject.

Question for you: what percentage of people are buying apple shares purely for its mainstream use case, how many for ponzi-like speculation, how many for its grey/illegal use case? I contend that the numbers are 0%/100%/0%.