Ironically if you want to use crypto as a currency Doge is actually one of the fastest and cheapest networks available. There's really nothing wrong with Dogecoin on a fundamental level. Not that I own any or recommend anyone buy it.

Hey guys,

I am pretty new to Bitcoin and don`t plan to invest at this point. I just wondered what`s the get out strategy, if (when) Bitcoin is sagging of.

1. If Bitcoin falls and investors are looking to trade Bitcoin for stable currencies, will there even be a market for this? Anticipating a bubble burst no one would trade "real" assets for bitcoin, right? .. Or am I am missing something here?

and

2. Would "Bitcoin"-Billionaires even be able to convert their Bitcoin funds today into other assets in a short period of time or is it basically impossible to convert large chunks Bitcoin quickly? Not assuming a price drop here ..

we're HODLERS, believers, we ain't looking to sell. But, there is a market to sell, i transferred some to GDAX(google it if you want, it is an exchange) yesterday in fact, planning on selling but **** no, HODLER, believer, ain't looking to sell! ra ha ha ra ha ha ra ha ha whoa whoa whoaaaaaaa

there really is no obvious get out strategy

IF you believe in the merits of these things then theres a long way to go before worrying about getting out.

IF you are a skeptic then you would not be much invested.

It may be interesting what happens during a recession...it should fare reasonably well, but I cant tell if will go down heavily or surge

another thing will be failed ICOS that fuel skepticism of the whole thing

The other thing to look out for is high levels of household debt tied to it. The market can still go up a lot because not many people are invested or have debt...but once that changes, once people are maxed out as to what they can contribute then this can have a very violent correction. its fairly distant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N74zGbAsdI

Lot of trading for skrill $ going on here. Buyer beware, this is an unregulated thread, use someone with a flawless reputation and don't trade too large an amount. https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5.../index424.html

ETA on BTC ETFs?

(Financial Times) https://www.ft.com/content/28bcfc66-...4-0a1e63a52f9c

www.investopedia.com/news/bitcoin-etfs-are-next-line-after-futures/

Hmmm a bitcoin etf to come, hopefully, and CME today...Short term it's only going up seems like.

But I thought futures was supposed to mean massive shorting and Wall Street crashing the party. Now I'm confused.

The logic of that idea is sound. It doesn't mean that it will happen. Or that if it does happen (and that is primary cause) that it happens in a time frame that is conducive to your connecting the two events causally...

In a real market, if you want to speculate (long)...lets say the market for widgets 100s of years ago, you had to actually buy widgets. This removed a certain amount of widgets from the float (supply).

In futures markets and with ETFs, you can speculate without affecting the supply and demand dynamic. The establishment will argue that you are indirectly affecting it through money.

This would be more or less OK and accurate if the supply of money were fixed (improvements in technology would see the price of goods decrease and prosperity more evenly and effectively spread throughout the world....), but it is not.

This would even be more or less OK if the supply of money were tied to something that required "economic work" in order to expand the supply of money (e.g. mining gold or BTC), but it is not.

Interestingly, the above is (lol again) more or less the bullish argument for BTC.

If you want to invest buy the coins. If you want to trade or speculate futures should suffice. But just as owning a gold ETF is not the same as metal in your hand, the BTC ETF is not the same as the actual coins and it is a price suppression mechanism.

Now that also doesn't necessarily mean that the price will go down in response to price suppression mechanisms being brought online. What it means is that (all else being equal) the price will not rise as much as it would otherwise because people are getting exposure without removing supply from the marketplace...decreasing the float.

Normally value investors that would step in after the price dropped to a certain point, but for something with no intrinsic value (ie: no expected future earnings, no actual value as a commodity, etc) who knows what could happen?

Even tulips didn't hit zero at the end of "tulipmania", as they do have some intrinsic value (ie: they are attractive flowers in themselves and propagation takes several years).

Juk

How do people in the transfer threads who purchase crypto for cash/online for 0.5%-1% vig not get smacked with taxes down the road when they go to sell their crypto again?

The video says it costed $24 on average to buy or sell Bitcoin last month (or maybe last quarter). Is this true?

I have had some pretty high fees transferring Bitcoin in the past few months.

its very misleading to think bitcoin doesnt have intrinsic value. If a network of things is difficult to replicate, at great cost, then that is whats backing the currency.

Its not different than what backs our fiats. The central bank can issue money and it is fairly established now that they can issue money, a liability, without a corresponding asset...no gold, no government bonds. People blow thier minds wondering whats backing but there really hasnt been anything backing currencies for a long long time.

then people say we need usd to pay taxes...yes and that makes that network stronger, but it doesnt make a network without that requirement usless

not attacking in any way just branching off what you brought up

I've sent BTC several times over the last few weeks (the last time being yesterday) and I've never paid more than $6 for a transaction, and it's always gone through within a few hours. I just select the lowest fee possible and I guess I get lucky.

i'm confused about the lightning network. if i understand it correctly, you'll deposit your BTC to the lightning channel and then you and other people settle up off-chain via the lightning nodes, and then the lightning nodes report back to the blockchain.

that's fine, seems like it will work, but it also fundamentally changes bitcoin. don't lightning channels/sidechains just become the new banks?

seems like there's some merit behind all of the twitter zombies chanting "bitcoin cash is bitcoin" because it's actually closer to the original vision.

I sent some Bitcoin to another exchange and it cost $13ish.

Futures are a good option to hedge risk against Bitcoin dropping. You could purchase Bitcoin and also sell futures to mitigate the risk. Is this correct? I think so.

Anyone else hoping Bitcoin makes it to 20k?

CME BTC futures Pretrading is already live:

BRTI (Index): $19,168

BTCF2018 - $19,500
BTCG2018 - $19,600
BTCH2018 - $19,700
BTCM2018 - $19,900

The margin costs are fairly prohibitive... one source said that Interactive Brokers wants $40k and another source is saying $90k to short each contract. To hedge 5 BTC will require you to put $200-450k up as margin.

Ib is letting you short right away. I don’t have docs handy but you can only be 0.2 short at launch.

No because you would always have complete control over your BTC and the only risks associated with LN are channel opening/closing fees. It's not like an exchange were you have to actually send your BTC to another address and trust them to pay out. You can at any moment close the channel and get your BTC back without relying on any third party.

People who will run big LN hubs will provide a service just like miners provide a service, but they won't have any fundamental control over your BTC. And of course there's nothing stopping anyone from opening his own LN hub so it's still decentralized.

Your BTC wallet is still the bank, the LN channel is more like a prepaid card you'll use for day to day transactions.

No ltc on this list?