So I explicitly tell the internet sales people that I'm also corresponding with other dealerships in the area? Would this always lead to the lowest price though? I'd imagine prices are prob cheaper in the winter for luxury cars, is this something I should consider? I feel like I could save a couple K if I do this right as opposed to just rushing in.

Also, I don't want to take up too much of your time but you mentioned that the used car market is pretty cut-throat. Can you recommend any websites that offer advice on what exactly I should be asking/checking before buying a used luxury car. I only know what model I want and the price range. It's my first car so total noob here.

There's no way I can guarantee that you'll get a great price--that relies too much on present market conditions. Starting a bidding war will get you to a fairly good starting point when you start visiting car dealers. It's important to realize that with cars (and everything else) there is a very real diminishing return on time spent haggling people down. You can get to a decent deal where they make 1k very easily... If you wanna scalp someone at cost it's going to take potentially several months of patience, at least 20 hours going back and forth with car guys, and quite a bit of time spent doing your homework. Honestly I don't think that's worth it... But that's just me. Basically what I'm saying is that the real return on doing all of that work isn't the 4k off list you settle on (picking a number out of thin air here) it's the 1k difference between that and what you could have achieved doing just 4-5 hours of work and buying next week.

The area that is going to have the most competition and thus the best prices is going to be the area with the most supply. If there are local luxury dealers they probably get a fair number of lease turn-ins. These lease turn ins are as close to a 'common used car' as you're going to see. They also probably don't associate much value with holding any particular one of them.

Alternatively the area where they are going to hold out the absolute most is with older used cars that are still in great shape. If someone is holding a 2000 Black BMW coupe with 65k miles it's not going to matter much WHAT he owns it for--he's going to absolutely rip that deal or not do it at all.

its also not a commodity market, where all available goods are very close in condition and specification. Do you just want a low price?, maybe that particular car needs x, y, and z that a higher priced one doesn't. It's not the sellers responsibility to vend a perfect car (especially in a used good, sold as is of course), and many times the lowest price today is not the lowest cost to you over the first 6 months.

My point is your shouldn't think in terms of new items when considering used goods, they must be evaluated on an individual basis. If its a great car they'd be idiots to sell it to you for less or no profit.

Yeah this is a really good point. The used car market is NOT like the new car market. This is what I was trying to get at when I was suggesting that lease turn ins would be the area where you got the best relative price. Basically the used car market is full of unique items. Some of those items no one wants and are very cheap... And some of those items everyone wants and they aren't so cheap.

A nice, clean, low mileage, used beamer is going to be the latter imo.

Recently traded in a 2010 Tacoma for a 2002 Camry. Wanted to share my experience and see if I could have done better. Felt like some dirty tricks were pulled...

Owed ~22k on the Tacoma, KBB said it was worth 24-25k.

Camry had ~120k miles on it, but drove well and was generally in good condition. KBB said it was worth ~6.5k. Was listed at 9.9


1st shady - the salesperson said we cant continue with the negotiation until they know exactly what I owe on the Tacoma. I felt like this put me at a disadvantage. I ended up giving up the #, but feel like I should have kept that to myself.

2nd shady - The first number their guy gave me was something like 12.5k, which was to represent the amount I'd owe after the trade in. I said "...you're offering me less than I owe on a tacoma worth about 24-25k? I'm not even going to counter this."
Salesperson went and talked to the manager, manager came out and said "ohhhh there was a misunderstanding. 12.5k is the difference between what you owe now, and what you WOULD owe on the camry. So really we're paying off your Tacoma and you're getting the Camry for ~9.5k"
I said "...so if I wanted to buy a car worth 20k, you'd write down $2000 as your offer because thats the difference?"
Him "Uhh...yeah i guess so. I know it's a little strange but thats how we do it. So what you'd really owe on the camry is 9.5k"

I let them know I wanted to think about it before I countered and walked out.

Went home, decided the car was exactly in the range I wanted to spend (if i could get a reasonable deal) and came up with an offer of 4.2K or so. Came back in, handed it to the salesperson. He immediately said something like "i dont think we can go this low, but I'll ask him"

I sat in some office for like 20minutes while I waited for a response. He came back with 7.9k or so. I asked the salesperson "So what are they offering for the Tacoma, and what am I paying for the Camry? This offer screws me on at least one of those deals, but I cant tell which" He said that's just the way they do things.

I brought up the KBB values for each vehicle, and the salesperson was immediately not happy about that. "oh, you cant go off of those prices because we have a lot of expenses that you wont see on there..."blahblahblah.

I said I think this would be an unfair deal if in the end I owed over 5.5k, he said to write the # down and initial it, and he'll see if the manager will OK it. Came back approved.



Shady #3 - In the finance office, I was going over the paperwork. The final price they paid for the Tacoma was wayyyy higher than I thought I would get - 25.5k. While the sale price of the Camry was way higher than I expected - 9k. In the end, I still owed 5.5 which I thought was fair until that point. But then I thought - ****, if they were willing to pay 25.5 for the Tacoma, and the Camry value is 6.5, I should have been able to get this car and owe 3k instead of 5.5k (owed 22 on tacoma). Did they inflate the Tacoma price in order to make it look like they got a better deal on the Camry? Or is that what they were really willing to pay for the vehicle?

At this point in the process is it too late to go back and renegotiate?

Should I have refused to continue negotiation until they separate the Tacoma buy value from the Camry sell value? Would this work or would they show me the door?

It felt good to go from the (scammy) 12.5k offer to 5.5k, but looking back I really feel like I could have saved another 2k or so if I did things better.

For the record, this is the biggest dealership in town, not some small shop.

Thoughts on the story? I'm not unhappy with the deal, but do feel like I could have shaved off another 1-2k - though its hard to tell due to the shadiness.

Wow sorry for the TLDR, didnt realize it had gone on so long.

So you reached a deal where they gave you retail, and you got retail. Would you have been happy to see them give you wholesale, and then charge you wholesale? It's all just numbers on a paper.

because in the end, that's all that matters. How you can equate that to shady is strange. If they wholesale/retailed you (which they initially tried, as did you), that would be shady or scummy, on their part. And of course if they screwed up and gave you more on the trade and less on the sale they'd be out of business real soon.

honestly I didnt know what the retail/wholesale prices should have been. I just thought there may have been room for another 1-2k in my favor based on that paper. I certainly could be wrong.

It was in your post, you took the time to learn the book value of your existing vehicle, then obtained the book value of the car you wanted. It's a given the dealer has more exact values, not just from book but from actual trading relevancy. It was your knowledge of both numbers that made your negotiation a positive one for you.

In your case the spread was the important number. I understand the dealer wanting to know what your payout is, it's a reasonable contingent on whether any deal is not only viable, but possible. To you, and any real dealer, what you owe has no bearing on the value of the car. What is relevant is the ability of your new vehicle being able to carry the financing you need, without reaching too deep upside down.

OP, this is an amazing thread.

I'm an Auto Broker in LA, I have worked at a couple retail dealerships, there is nothing better than wholesales for cars. We get our cars at invoice from the dealership and charge a brokerage fee. Definitely an easier way to finance/lease a new car, rather than jumping through the hoops at a dealership.

Its amazing how unrealistic people's views are about car sales. I specialize in new car leases, when the car is coming in at invoice, there really just isn't anywhere to go on the price/mo.

With that being said, your views and stories are spot on and I enjoyed every post. I wish it didn't stop on page 13. Seriously, thank you.

Thanks. Being a car wholesaler is a pretty rough hustle... At the same time you probably do pretty well for yourself in a market the size of LA.

It doesn't work everywhere, and its really just a service we provide to people who don't have time to go looking for a car themselves. A lot of people expect us to act like a regular dealership, but we have so much interest and inquiries we can honestly pick and choose who we work with.

If you have enough money there really isn't a recession right now. The movie/tv industry gives us a lot of clients who MUST have a good looking car. We still have people coming in for six figure cars weekly. Being based in Hollywood helps too.

Awesome thread.

I have a negotiation question concerning a real estate lease. I know this is not your speciality but I would appreciate your input.

My roommate and I are working in the Philippines. Our company provides housing, but needs more capacity for future employees, and so we are looking to get another place.

We found an apartment that we like. Our company will be paying for it, but I still want to get a decent deal.

The Seller is offering

3 bedroom unit
237 squaremeters
$3025 per month plus vat plus dues

association dues (@ $1.25 per sq.m) are roughly $330 per month

Our estate agent has assured me that "everything is negotiable"

What would you advise our opening offer to be?

On a different topic, my friend recently graduated university and is working his first job. His 1987 Subaru Trooper, unfortunately (lots of good memories), is going to die any day.

He has recently told me "I got my eye on the Hyundai Veloster. I'd like to buy american but I can't seem to get unobsessed with this car. I'm test driving one this weekend. Any suggestions." In my opinion he is a relatively uninformed consumer and I am worried he will get pwned by a salesman. A compounding factor is that he is getting a very good paycheck for the first time and perhaps experiencing some lifestyle inflation. What would you suggest I tell him? Currently I am emailing him pertinent info from this thread.

Assuming he does some research first he'll do at least average. It's pretty unlikely he'll get decapitated too badly on a new car if he's not a complete moron about it.

Find out what the average price of property around the place you're trying to stay is... and offer slightly less. If I had to take a shot at it blindly I'd offer 2k or something--and expect and counter their next offer.

The key thing here is to offer a very low number--because that way you have lots of room to give up. Successful negotiation is first and foremost about not being the first person to make a reasonable offer. I strongly suspect that the land lord hasn't made one yet

I have yet to get a real job or first time renting an apartment. I feel I would get no where with negotiation. What are some tips to get it started when it comes to these two subjects? I'm kinda slow so please break it down for me.

Thanks! Oh, and nice thread!

If you were going to advertise a car for sale online, say it was worth $3000. what % over the actual value would you put as your initial price?

I just wanted to say that I really really enjoy this thread.

Thanks!

Negotiation is a skill like any other. You'd also be surprised when/where you can use and thus practice it. Recently (somewhat annoyed by a negotiation I'd had with an indian dude in the near past) I negotiated down the price of a coke from 2.50 to 1.50 at a (indian owned ldo) gas station. I did it really just to see if I could--def made my day If you want to practice negotiation just try to negotiate in meaningless situations... Over time you'll get a little better. A really crucial idea that you can take away from this thread is to literally never not counter offer when you're buying/selling something and to always try to get the other guy to put forward the first offer. Beyond that I'm not really sure what you can do.

Honestly I have no idea where you live, what your skills are, or what your best course of action is towards getting a job/apartment. That's also kind of beyond the scope of this thread.

Personally I'd list a used car for 500-750$ below retail book if I was trying to sell it personally. As a car dealer I'd offer at retail book. The % varies from car to car based on the market conditions for that model.

hey bored, great thread really enjoyed reading it. I started selling cars last month for first time with no experience for toyota. Last month sold 5 cars and jus really learned ins and outs of negotiating and product knowledge. This month have picked it up and got better and more aggressive and have 10 cars sold so far this month. I'm selling more cars this month cuz of customers liking me, asking right questions and also just getting the right customers as ups too.

Anyways any tips on how you flip customers who don't have interest in buying that day and getting them to buy. Best way to answers questions like Whats your best price or the I'm just looking customers. I'm starting to get the hang of it and can close deals without getting my manager involved but still have some customers that I need to get them involved. Also pretty crazy how much more money you can make selling used cars than new cars. I find myself smokings cigs in the used car lot most the day trying to cherry pick customers there lol.

A few quick points (sorry I didn't see your post until just now).

1) You'll never really know whether someone is 'ready to buy today' or not. The reality is that "I'm just looking" is the standard response people give--and it's nearly always a lie. Who in their right mind would go where car salesmen are to 'just look'? The reality is that the customers hate you/us passionately--and if they could buy a car without dealing with us at all they would. Fortunately they can't. Obviously when I say they hate you/us I mean that's their starting point... If it stays that way you won't last long.

2) because of 1) you should just concentrate on finding something the customer really likes. Ideally it'll be as cheap a vehicle as you can make them like as this will give you more room to make money when it comes time to negotiate... But find something they really want. If they really want it badly they'll buy it--and price won't really be a concern.

3) Since you're on 2p2 I'm going to assume you're a poker player and understand variance. There is a hell of a lot of variance in car sales. You could be doing better because you're doing better (which is possible) but very likely you're doing exactly as well or slightly worse than you were your first day. I know I posted elsewhere in the thread that the pattern I've typically seen with new guys is that they start strong and degrade quickly.

4) Stop trying to cherry pick ups. Seriously. There are a lot of good reasons for this... But the big one is that you work at a ****ing toyota dealership. You do not work at a Kia store where people who never ever will be able to buy a car pull up all the time--most of your customers have good credit and/or cash. Everyone is a viable up--so your focus should be talking to 5 people every day. I don't care if you chat up people waiting in the service department. Talk to 5 people. You would have to suck pretty badly to not be successful making 5 contacts a day. You have to be the most aggressive, hardest working, and totally fearless person to survive long enough to make real money.

Also you'll probably sell more used cars talking to new customers than you will talking to used customers. Find the 3-4 best pieces of used car inventory you have to switch people from new to used. If possible find cars that if you marked them up 4k above PAC you would be ~2-3k cheaper than the new car. Make sure these cars are actually as nice/nicer than the new car you plan to switch from.

Then use those cars as fall back positions if/when a deal goes sideways on payment. Trust me you'll rip heads clean off with this approach

Thanks bored very good info that I will def use to sell more cars.