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Old 04-29-2009, 03:55 PM   #26
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by IpwnFish View Post
Hi im trying to learn LH, especially SH so i watched a ton of stoxpoker LHE videos most of them from doughnutz.

His losse agressive style (very loose) intrigued me at first and i was wondering what his winrate was.

Today i found http://tableratings.com/stars-player-search/doughnutz and was like

Why is this guy a stoxpoker coach ? why is he teaching me how to play when he is losing at a abnormal rate ?

someone enlighten me please !
I recently saw doughnutz play the following hand (I may have the first two actions wrong, but his preflop play is accurate.)

5-6 handed online game

UTG limps, fold, raise, SB does something, doughnutz 3bets QTo from the BB, the other idiots do something other than cap.

Flop comes all small cards like 852, and now doughnutz checks.

Was that hand in one of the videos and if so, what was his rationale for either his preflop or flop play? No one I have talked to can come up with any explanation other than "misclick" or "who knows man. that guy just sucks, but he is awful and gets everyone else to tilt, so I don't mind him around at all."
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:57 PM   #27
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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This is just like the Special Olympics; they are competing and a winner is declared, but it doesn't mean that anyone is any good.
Bob, while Dough has a massively different style than most, he has won an assload of money over a huge sample online.
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:59 PM   #28
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Bob, while Dough has massively different style than most, he has won an assload of money over a huge sample online.
I am well aware of this.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:13 PM   #29
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Re: doughnutz ?!

I also think Dnutz either makes deliberately bad plays or the bad plays that he makes arent hurting him much and are decent metagame plays assuming he can watch his frequency. I dont mind saying this, because D isnt gonna change his style, because I have pointed things he could work on.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:17 PM   #30
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Re: doughnutz ?!

Ya no way does he suck. I think there is a trend on this forum to see someone make something that is a clear mistake to you (and it may in fact be one), and then assume that bc they made such an "obvious" mistake they suck. but everyone makes mistakes, and if doughnutz looked over a few hundred of your hands he would probably find plenty of "mistakes" too -- ie, things he would never have done and places where his line would have saved him or made him more money than your line did you. anyway, it should be clear that between "doughnutz sucks and luckboxed his way into 2 mil" and "doughnutz makes a number unconventional plays that common wisdom says suck but doughnutz is actually good," the latter is far more likely to be true.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:18 PM   #31
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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the bad plays that he makes arent hurting him much and are decent metagame plays assuming he can watch his frequency.
this
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:19 PM   #32
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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I also think Dnutz either makes deliberately bad plays or the bad plays that he makes arent hurting him much and are decent metagame plays assuming he can watch his frequency.
His latest graph (that he posted), shows that over a quarter million hands he has lost money. I know he won a bunch at some point, but the games are not nearly the same quality that they were years ago.

I don't know a single professional who has lost money over 250K hands, and I know many, many pros.

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I dont mind saying this, because D isnt gonna change his style, because I have pointed things he could work on.
This is the beauty of lhe; those who are losing just blame variance and those who are winning just point at their results. Either way, it keeps these guys playing, which is good for those who understand the game on the deepest level.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:33 PM   #33
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Re: doughnutz ?!

[QUOTE=PokerBob;10320605]His latest graph (that he posted), shows that over a quarter million hands he has lost money. I know he won a bunch at some point, but the games are not nearly the same quality that they were years ago.

I don't know a single professional who has lost money over 250K hands, and I know many, many pros.


I agree that it would be tough for TR to be that far off, but havong played 3k+ w Doughnutz, I know he doesnt suck, whether he has huge leaks or not remains to be seen, but if you win 2mill over a huge sample it stands to reason that you could run horrible over a 250k.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:33 PM   #34
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by PokerBob View Post
I recently saw doughnutz play the following hand (I may have the first two actions wrong, but his preflop play is accurate.)

5-6 handed online game

UTG limps, fold, raise, SB does something, doughnutz 3bets QTo from the BB, the other idiots do something other than cap.

Flop comes all small cards like 852, and now doughnutz checks.

Was that hand in one of the videos and if so, what was his rationale for either his preflop or flop play? No one I have talked to can come up with any explanation other than "misclick" or "who knows man. that guy just sucks, but he is awful and gets everyone else to tilt, so I don't mind him around at all."
0 chance I played any hand like this
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:38 PM   #35
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by MitchL View Post
I also think Dnutz either makes deliberately bad plays or the bad plays that he makes arent hurting him much and are decent metagame plays assuming he can watch his frequency. I dont mind saying this, because D isnt gonna change his style, because I have pointed things he could work on.
Quote:
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this
I agree with this completely. I just think his frequency is maybe too high. I imagine that making a ton of super high variance and neutral EV plays leads to the kind of graphs doughnutz has posted.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:45 PM   #36
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by MitchL View Post
I also think Dnutz either makes deliberately bad plays or the bad plays that he makes arent hurting him much and are decent metagame plays assuming he can watch his frequency.
Mistakes are mistakes, and bad plays are bad plays. If a play is correct for metagame reasons, then it is not a bad play.

It is my opinion that too often plays that would be suspect at best in a vacuum are swept under the rug and labeled a +ev "metagame" or "image" play, without any logical rationale for why they are +ev. I am not suggesting that this is what doughnutz is doing (although it wouldn't surprise me in the least), but I do know that I'd think twice about listening to (much less paying for) the advice of someone who by their own admission has lost money over a quarter million hands.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:46 PM   #37
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by Hock_ View Post
0 chance I played any hand like this
OK. I'll see if I can find it for you, although I am sure you can find it in your database. QTo in the BB within the last 10 days. I could be wrong, although I doubt it.

Last edited by PokerBob; 04-29-2009 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:01 PM   #38
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Re: doughnutz ?!

"doughnutz goes to Showdown more frequently than 98.5% of the population at $30/$60 FL Hold'Em (6 max)." (51K hands)

I wonder if this is wrong, too.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:12 PM   #39
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Re: doughnutz ?!

My roomate, when he played 6max went to sd more than dnutz and posted a graph running at 2bb/100 over 200k hands at 15/30 and 30/60.
If you play a Dnutz kind of style you have to sd, becaue you piss people off and induce spews. I know people who a very different style than Dnutz who respect his game and understand what he is trying to do. - disagree w some of his philosophy in todays games, but that doesn't mean I think he is a losing player.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerBob View Post
Mistakes are mistakes, and bad plays are bad plays. If a play is correct for metagame reasons, then it is not a bad play.

It is my opinion that too often plays that would be suspect at best in a vacuum are swept under the rug and labeled a +ev "metagame" or "image" play, without any logical rationale for why they are +ev. I am not suggesting that this is what doughnutz is doing (although it wouldn't surprise me in the least), but I do know that I'd think twice about listening to (much less paying for) the advice of someone who by their own admission has lost money over a quarter million hands.
Also bob even though I have only watched a couple of D's videos I felt like he explained the reasoning behind his craziness very well. He also leverages his imahe very well.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:36 PM   #41
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Re: doughnutz ?!

also bob, for a .5BB winner (completely reasonable in today's highstakes online games) there is a 5% of being breakeven over 250K sample. lol limitholdemaments.
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Old 04-29-2009, 06:04 PM   #42
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Re: doughnutz ?!

Always so entertaining.

I'll say the following and that's it unless someone asks a really pointed question or says something that just can't go without a response:

My results haven't been very good over the last 9 months. As I've said before, at the beginning of that time period I was trying some new things that just didn't work and my play was just plain bad. Since then I've been winning, though definitely not at the clip I want or expect from myself, though IMO I've run worse than 99% of the world. I have a lot of confidence in my ability and my edge, but that doesn't really count for anything and I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Bottom line is I'm not going anywhere, so we'll all get to see where I am in a year or whatever. Maybe I'm totally wrong and I really do suck. Or maybe I'll get to make another infamous post showing what a ***** variance can be as evidenced by the fact that I had this 250k "breakeven" stretch and then went on a sick heater for the next 500k (god please, it's about ****ing time ). Some of you might say the current 250k is enough to show I suck, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

I guess my point is that talk is cheap whether you're "for" me or against me. One way or the other my results will speak for themselves.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:23 PM   #43
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by gaming_mouse View Post
also bob, for a .5BB winner (completely reasonable in today's highstakes online games) there is a 5% of being breakeven over 250K sample. lol limitholdemaments.
wtf kind of SD did you use? Seems pretty ridiculous.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:28 PM   #44
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Re: doughnutz ?!

Look at the graphs, DN is a loser over his last 250k hands, but has won $130kish over his last 150k hands. Hmmmmmm...it's all in perception. So, basically, he just had a 100k hand losing stretch when he admits that he was trying new things and playing bad.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:57 PM   #45
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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wtf kind of SD did you use? Seems pretty ridiculous.
will be true for an SD as low as 15.
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:31 PM   #46
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by efficacy View Post
The key to success in LHE is making less mistakes than your opponent. In this hand, I think doughnutz's flop c/r is a small-to-medium sized mistake, while his opponent's flop bet is a small mistake and his river bet is a big mistake. Doughnutz wins 2-1 and is justly awarded the pot.

Poker Stars $50/$100 Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with 6 2
utg calls, 2 folds, doughnutz calls, Hero checks

Flop: (3 SB) A 2 T (3 players)
doughnutz checks, Hero checks, utg bets, doughnutz raises, Hero folds, utg calls

Turn: (3.5 BB) 8 (2 players)
doughnutz bets, utg calls

River: (5.5 BB) 5 (2 players)
doughnutz checks, utg bets, doughnutz calls

Final Pot: 7.5 BB
doughnutz shows 7 5 (a pair of Fives)
utg shows J K (high card Ace)
doughnutz wins 7.48 BB
(Rake: $2.00)
3 bet the flop
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:36 PM   #47
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by BK1248 View Post
3 bet the flop
L-O-L. I left out a crucial piece of information in this hand: limper was semi-tight preflop limper (30/9 iirc).
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:07 PM   #48
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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This is just like the Special Olympics; they are competing and a winner is declared, but it doesn't mean that anyone is any good.
This is hilarious and cruel.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:08 PM   #49
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Re: doughnutz ?!

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Originally Posted by efficacy View Post
The key to success in LHE is making less mistakes than your opponent. In this hand, I think doughnutz's flop c/r is a small-to-medium sized mistake, while his opponent's flop bet is a small mistake and his river bet is a big mistake. Doughnutz wins 2-1 and is justly awarded the pot.

Poker Stars $50/$100 Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with 6 2
utg calls, 2 folds, doughnutz calls, Hero checks

Flop: (3 SB) A 2 T (3 players)
doughnutz checks, Hero checks, utg bets, doughnutz raises, Hero folds, utg calls

Turn: (3.5 BB) 8 (2 players)
doughnutz bets, utg calls

River: (5.5 BB) 5 (2 players)
doughnutz checks, utg bets, doughnutz calls

Final Pot: 7.5 BB
doughnutz shows 7 5 (a pair of Fives)
utg shows J K (high card Ace)
doughnutz wins 7.48 BB
(Rake: $2.00)
I think his turn bet is also a fairly big mistake, so i'd call it close to a draw mistakes wise.

Ill make this play on a A92 board, when I suspect UTG will check the flop with Ax sometimes, but definitly not on this board vs a 30/9

But im not implying dnutz is bad, even if he is "breaking even" in the games he plays in (no game selection pretty much) with the # of tables he plays, its pretty damn good in itself.

Last edited by Heisenb3rg; 04-29-2009 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:09 PM   #50
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Re: doughnutz ?!

This is a stupid thread. Stuff like this should be deleted from HSLHE. Doughnutz has earned over 2 million dollars playing in the toughest LHE games online. He even tried to beat me HU one time. Random people trying to use tableratings to assault a poker coach's credibility is not a high stakes topic, in my opinion.
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