Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read.

01-11-2010 , 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketsfan4lyfe
people who coach cant play poker. like they say, those who cant, teach...
Wow where can we find more of these timeless nuggets of wisdom?!
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:31 PM
tl dr
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackM
Just curious, how much do you charge for you coaching? Is it higher than your average hourly playing 6-max? PM me if you think it would be inappropriate to post the answers. How did you come up with a $$$ figure per how how much your coaching was worth?
No, that´s a very good question. Ask your coach that question next time.
The basis for my rate is my hourly, but in all honesty for every hour coached so far I have spent more time in terms of going overtime if I find that there is more to say on a specific topic or some form of preparation. I charge 475 dollars per hour.
In the end, it has to be a rate which justifies me not spending time with my loved ones, my number one priority, and at the same time being worth it to spend it away from them coaching in order to provide for them.
Therefor, if I want to keep doing this, my hourly and my rate will have to rise and fall in some sort of conjunction.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:36 PM
the coaching rate being 1/2 playing rate makes no sense

you can charge what you think you are worth, or what people are willing to pay
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim_money
How much does boywonder charge for coaching?
$475 per hour
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantian
Can you please clarify some things where I am confused about.

Are you now saying that you found the hourly prices of getting coachings pretty overpriced and should be ''ethical'' according to some standards. If so what do you found a fair coaching rate? is that depending on the limits the student plays or the limits the coach plays and can win hourly a good amount.

Or are you saying that people who are coach for almost x years but hardly playing any Y volume and are not putting Z amount of effort in refreshing their game should NOT be coaches at all or at least lower their prices?

I found it a good read and Im quite interested in discussion
I would need to charge you 475 dollars / hour for a five hour session to get into the exact details of this

Kidding aside, I don't want to dwelve into an equation for a fair coaching rate, but saying that if you are charging somebody 300 $ + for an hour of your time, you better be damn sure you know what you are talking about, and the only way to be absolutely sure is to check your winrate and see how you stack up as it's hard for a student to quantify the value of the information you are giving him.

Obviously this comes with exceptions, like I said in the OP.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:39 PM
You're my hero boywonder.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boywonder
No, that´s a very good question. Ask your coach that question next time.
The basis for my rate is my hourly, but in all honesty for every hour coached so far I have spent more time in terms of going overtime if I find that there is more to say on a specific topic or some form of preparation. I charge 475 dollars per hour.
In the end, it has to be a rate which justifies me not spending time with my loved ones, my number one priority, and at the same time being worth it to spend it away from them coaching in order to provide for them.
Therefor, if I want to keep doing this, my hourly and my rate will have to rise and fall in some sort of conjunction.
Even if your hourly coaching is lower than your hourly playing, do you it feel that it offers any sort value in that it improves you game?

do you fear that your recent publicity might have some subconscious negative effects on your game since you have been successfully griding in anonymity for so long?
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megenoita
There are some problems with receiving coaching or watching videos in general. There is a certain level of trust needed on the part of the student, for most people sound good when they are talking poker, but few are really doing well in their games. So there needs to be a way to navigate through the information given...if you have Leatherass or Boywonder as a coach, you can pretty much trust what they say, at least that it has a solid foundation in reality. But what if the coach/vid maker isn't established as a great player? I think it's really hard for the struggling player to evaluate these kinds of things. It's almost as if there is a catch-22 where if you are good enough to properly evaluate unproven (to you) coaches/vid makers, you are good enough that you don't need a coach.

I think there should be listed qualifications for vid makers, including PTR or HEM graphs updated every 3 months. Players should be able to look people up and see if they feel they are worth watching. A sort of recent poker resume. I hear certain training sites say they are very strict with choosing who can make vids, but on the major training sites I've seen, time and time again I am seeing players that are certainly not big winners in any game (I can give specific examples but would rather refrain), and their advice reflects that fact.

The next trend in the training sites should be a higher standard of vids/coaching.
Some good points, definitely agree with the last sentence.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Three Alls
Even if your hourly coaching is lower than your hourly playing, do you it feel that it offers any sort value in that it improves you game?

do you fear that your recent publicity might have some subconscious negative effects on your game since you have been successfully griding in anonymity for so long?
Good questions.

To your first question, the answer is yes, but quite frankly the improvement is somewhat limited.

To the second, the answer is no because I have worked hard not to out my screenname. Even though it would provide more transparency for my students, it would probably have a negative effect on my psychology and the monetary gain would have to be larger to compensate, which it is not. I try to regularly put out graphs and see the reception they get and gauge how I measure up to the other regulars at my limits.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkatroid
my original op was just a bit of fun knowing the style it was written in, and the content it contained would provoke an nvg orgasm. It took me all of 20 seconds.

fwiw i agree with pretty much everything you say, im aware of my shortcomings and ironically im getting coaching to overhaul my game.

18 months ago i saw my winrate slow down so i decided to play twice as many hands in 09 in order to compensate for it. I knew i would make mistakes 12 tabling and not play as well as i could but i thought the extra rakeback would compensate for this. The amount of times ive timed out with a premium holding makes me feel sick

However, it was a shortsighted but successful strategy, how successful compared to the other option i will never know .

Going forward its now time to improve my game
I think this is the right move forward, congrats on a smart decision.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sh58
coaches don't need to be in touch with the modern game at all imo.

a good coach transcends recent trends
Level? If so, you suceeded. If not, do not agree.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger88
I haven't made a 6max NL video in over a year and don't intend to, I don't think I'm qualified at this point as I've spent all my playing time in the past year on PLO/mixed games/HU.
that's to bad i was hoping you and brain townsend would put together a co-op video showing how u picked apart Isildur1
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:03 PM
anything well known will never confer an edge. anyone who doesnt 'get' this and its implications is a born sucker. redman is right.

re: vague admonitions vs useful advice

'do not tilt' and 'exercise emotional control' are examples of wisdom without content. how do you avoid tilt and have greater emotional control? what are the attentional procedures involved in defusing tilt and reining in your paranoia? those questions do not have general answers because the triggers and habits of thought that induce self-defeating emotions are specific to each individual. what worked for the Untiltable Master may not work for his students and many of them will prevent him from providing useful advice by lying about how they think and what they care about (most tilt is identity/self-esteem related).

Quote:
coaches don't need to be in touch with the modern game at all imo.

a good coach transcends recent trends
this is only true wrt emotional control. the decision-making procedures of poker are in theory very simple and you do not need a coach to learn them. computing the correct action given the relevant variables is just plain easy. you get an edge versus competent opposition (all of whom know how to compute the correct decision give x, y, and z because they are not morons) by outguessing them. the most valuable advice at any given time outside of how to ward off anger, resentment, frustration, etc., is the equivalent of, ''people throw rock too often on their first throw''. those rules of thumb change over time as each member of the player pool tries to adjust to ongoing strategy drift.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:06 PM
Is coaching a waste of money?
If you get something out of it then no.

I think the price is what is debatable.
I gotta think "proper" coaching is never a waste. Some people can get this from a book others may need visual training.

It seems that these days, a pretty graph=good coach.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megenoita

I think there should be listed qualifications for vid makers, including PTR or HEM graphs updated every 3 months. Players should be able to look people up and see if they feel they are worth watching. A sort of recent poker resume. I hear certain training sites say they are very strict with choosing who can make vids, but on the major training sites I've seen, time and time again I am seeing players that are certainly not big winners in any game (I can give specific examples but would rather refrain), and their advice reflects that fact.
Why should this be the list of qualifications? You are not paying these individuals to win, you are paying them so they improve YOUR game. If you really want qualifications for a coach to be standardized you need a VALID measure of how a coach HELPS THEIR STUDENTS.

I have watched several online training videos and some of the ones I have learned from the most are made by players that are not strong winners, but they are great instructors. I have also seen some vids by strong winners that I haven't learned from because they are not particularly good instructors.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:11 PM
Tiger Woods has a golf coach...just think about that for a second.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:16 PM
Thinly veiled advertisement.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:23 PM
Nice ad....
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boywonder
Level? If so, you suceeded. If not, do not agree.
not a level
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanVeen
this is only true wrt emotional control. the decision-making procedures of poker are in theory very simple and you do not need a coach to learn them. computing the correct action given the relevant variables is just plain easy. you get an edge versus competent opposition (all of whom know how to compute the correct decision give x, y, and z because they are not morons) by outguessing them. the most valuable advice at any given time outside of how to ward off anger, resentment, frustration, etc., is the equivalent of, ''people throw rock too often on their first throw''. those rules of thumb change over time as each member of the player pool tries to adjust to ongoing strategy drift.
I hate disagreeing with you because you're right like 99% of the time, but you're very wrong here.

The vast majority of professional poker players couldn't figure out the correct line in many postflop spots even if they knew their opponent's exact range and exactly how he'd respond to all your possible lines. Learning to do that is hard, many people haven't bothered at all, and everyone has more to learn. If this were anywhere close to easy to do, computers would've solved NLHE by now.

There's a lot more to poker than emotional control and leveling wars.

Last edited by NoahSD; 01-11-2010 at 02:55 PM.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooGrux King
Tiger Woods has a golf coach...just think about that for a second.
I think he needs a life coach.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:42 PM
I think that it's important for people to realize that there are bad coaches out there. You can't just choose any coach who says he coaches the stakes you play, pay him for x hours and come out a big winner (or even come out with a higher winner than you started).

If you're a smart guy and you're comfortable asking questions, I think it's not to hard to judge a coach and therefore find one that's good for you. A good coach should be able to explain almost everything he says to you to the point where there's no question that he's right. A good student should ask for these explanations.

I think a lot of people have the idea that a coach is going to be able to sit down and tell you the correct play in a long series of spots and they're going to be a noticeably better player for it. The fact of the matter is that NLHE is a complicated game. If your coach spent hours with you just listing the correct play in various spots and you actually managed to remember them all, that would barely effect your winrate at all because he'dve covered such a tiny % of the possible spots you'll see. So, the job of a coach isn't to list correct plays to you, it's to show you how to figure out what the correct play is. If your coach isn't doing that or you're not understanding your coach's explanation, one of you isn't doing his job.

Last edited by NoahSD; 01-11-2010 at 02:50 PM.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharity™
Thinly veiled advertisement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabadu
Nice ad....
The OP is a lot more than just advertising.
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote
01-11-2010 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HellRoxYa
The OP is a lot more than just advertising.
obv. but there is an element of advertising to it. good op regardless tho
Is coaching a waste of money? Oh, and too long, don't read. Quote

      
m