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Coaching for future profit? Coaching for future profit?

04-19-2016 , 09:13 PM
I am a winning MTT player in my local live circuit. Recently, a few people have approached me asking for coaching. I intend to set my hour rate at ~$80-100/h, but some of them asked me to coach them in exchange for a % of their future profit.

Anyone has experience in this kind of deal? How is it generally done? How much % does the coach usually take? (I know it depends on the skill level of the student and how long does the contract last, but just want to hear some insights). What should I watch out for?

Thanks!
Coaching for future profit? Quote
05-02-2016 , 09:22 AM
i live in NJ, I would also be down for a profit share for coaching, im a winning mtt and cash player with literally the worst bankroll management. Please help me, My email is lotionsamples0523@gmail.com
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05-10-2016 , 08:01 PM
i'd like to see your resume on the local live circuit that warrants charging $80-$100

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05-10-2016 , 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2 dog, p2
i'd like to see your resume on the local live circuit that warrants charging $80-$100

Yep. Sorry but that's an absurd hourly rate for a live donkament coach. I really don't want to get into an argument about this but know an online cash player is incredibly far ahead of live donkament players.
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05-13-2016 , 03:32 PM
I am not posting this here to look for students. I already get a lot of coaching requests, so by basic rules of supply demand, my rate isn't absurd. Poker is not yet developed in my country, and most people don't know English well enough to read poker books or watch online coaching videos, that's why someone like me is in high demand. Maybe I'm a donkament player by your standard, but in my region, I am one of the best players by far. Skill is relative and game selection is the most important factor, isn't it? ;-)

The only reason I agree to do coaching is because I want to increase my brand awareness for future sponsorship, in anticipation of a poker boom in my country. My current win rate is far better than $80-100/h, so I want to get a good rate to compensate for my time. In any case, I'm not here to discuss whether my coaching rate is appropriate or not. I just want to ask you guys about coaching for future profits, how is it generally done. If you don't have any experience/insights or opinions about that topic, please don't comment.
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05-13-2016 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
I just want to ask you guys about coaching for future profits, how is it generally done.
I recommend doing 50/50. Half upfront, half based on a performance metric such as a doubled bankroll.
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05-21-2016 , 08:06 AM
i should also do some advertisement to open a poker school in my exotic country i would definitely charge 80-100$/h in a place where pple don't even have internet L O L
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05-21-2016 , 10:21 PM
You can agree to a certain period of time or a certain amount.If during 1 year he is up in profits of 100k you could get an X % according to the agreement, or you can do this to a certain amount then when he comes to 100k in winings you get a X %
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05-26-2016 , 05:18 PM
I think it's absurd. Who knowns what will be tomorrow. Smth can hit guys head and they will stop playing poker. A lot of nuances! Say your price and let them agree to your conditions. Coacher shoul be respected and there shouldn't be any discussions about the payment
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06-04-2016 , 04:25 PM
Well a lot of pros have used this approach before in the past (Men Nguyen came to mind). I think Phil Gordon also opens a coaching site online (I won't link it here) which takes a percentage of his students' profit. This will help me tap into the market of players who are not rich enough, but have big potential and willingness to learn.

I also thought about setting up a coaching site in my country but in the end I'm not sure if getting a few thousands bucks is worth it to share my hard-earned knowledge with people who would become my competitors in the near future (the mid/high stakes player pool in my country is quite small).
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06-05-2016 , 11:24 AM
Idea is great, we're doing the same thing online.

Live is going to be a lot harder since it's easier to make money online and in a more reliable way (this already assumes that you're a great teacher and your students will win if they do what u teach).

When i started it, i did NOT make my hourly profit on my first student (despite him being a HUGE HUGE success).

It was a challenge for me and it also was a way to differentiate myself from mediocre coaches.

My selection process was not poker skill. The best players don't need this coaching and the worst players NEED it, but have no money. So give them tasks that prove to you that you can count on them in the bad times.

Good luck in case you follow up on your project!
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06-06-2016 , 07:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkItThrough
When i started it, i did NOT make my hourly profit on my first student (despite him being a HUGE HUGE success).
Was it because you take too little % from your student?
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06-06-2016 , 09:24 AM
My guess would be profit target being too low. It takes a considerable amount of hours to take someone from losing 5 NL to winning at decent stakes.

So even if you make the profit target of say 1K you will have put in so many hours by that time that your hourly is horrible.

Coaching helps someone get better much faster but it remains a marathon
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06-06-2016 , 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joomorrow
Was it because you take too little % from your student?
No. Profit target was 100k, % higher than today.

I "sacrificed" short term EV for bigger longterm EV. Students do the same, altho with some you could argue that they were so bad that they made no sacrifice at all lol.

But funny enough, the people with the toughest contracts/conditions do the best - today.

Reasons:

First, my hourly is very high. But yes, taking somebody from Micro to Highstakes, especially in a super short time (6-9months) will only work if both the coach AND the student are hardcore.
Every time the student gets lazy/crybaby/life problem, it's a problem for the coach.

Today we actually take a lot less %, lot less profit target and conditions become easier.
It's because we improve every day at what we do and we pass our additional profit to the students, which then also helps us to grow more (i copy Jeff Bezos here).

The other part of the hard truth is that most people are crybabies and are not smart enough to think 1-2 years ahead. I know that very very few people would accept the hardcore contracts we had back in the day (quitting was NOT possible!).

People made fun of how somebody would pay 50k+ for poker coaching, but if you understand that these guys make 25k/month on their own today, it is the "people" who are the dummies. Yes, that's in the times where "poker is sooo tough".
The guys know that they got a lot MORE value than poker. You can throw them into other fields, and they will kill there, bc not only did they learn pokerstrat but more importantly a success winner mindset (which is a lot harder to teach...bc even some of the biggest winners in online poker are "only" geniuses who were lucky to have poker...and not winners who looked at poker, fought for it and won. Sort of one-hit-wonder vs predictable success)

Other stuff:

You learn a lot of little details by doing things. The unexpected stuff that you can't know.

Also, certain lessons we put in our library, kind of little mini-courses (not for sale, only CFP students get this stuff). Now we don't have to teach the same stuff in person to every new student.

Now we also have (other) great coaches, most of them went through the program themselves. They coach and bring additional value with their unique experience of having been a student.

Our COO (Janez) is also a successful CFP alumni, so now we got a big powerhouse, everything systemized and we can accept more students and scale things.

In short:

(IMO) it only makes financially sense if you plan on doing things on a bigger scale. The first investment is so big (time) that it can't pay off by itself.

You need to have fun doing stuff and willing to get less or no pay (relative to ur std earnings).

Most people are not, that's why you will not see other successful CFP programs on the market.

I'm happy tho if it works, bc poker is not the only industry where education needs to be changed... so we're working hard on expanding elsewhere as well!

Last edited by ThinkItThrough; 06-06-2016 at 10:35 AM.
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06-07-2016 , 10:10 AM
Thanks for sharing, ThinkItThrough. So in short the initial investment (to prepare the courses, make videos...) is so big in time and efforts, that's why you did not make your hourly the first time. But I think it's a problem with coaching in general (in poker, and in many other fields) and not just with coaching for profit.
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06-07-2016 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joomorrow
Thanks for sharing, ThinkItThrough. So in short the initial investment (to prepare the courses, make videos...) is so big in time and efforts, that's why you did not make your hourly the first time. But I think it's a problem with coaching in general (in poker, and in many other fields) and not just with coaching for profit.
Yes, that is true.

Hence my advice, do it because you have fun and not with the expectation of good money short term.

The easier way is to charge an inflated (imo) price/hour, which pretty much all coaches do.
I don't say it's bad, buyer and seller agree, their problem. It's the most simple way of doing things. Clear transaction, that's it.

Today, it's the 2nd best option tho and the only reason a student should EVER pay a coach/hour is because the student knows for a fact that the advice will turn into instant return on investment.

In my case, i decline to coach per hour and turn down students because my knowledge is worth more. So, i'm not a charity...i simply put my money and time where my mouth is.

And well, there is a reason why other coaches don't do CFP. Because deep down the truth is that hourly coaching is a bad deal for most (not all!!!) students compared to CFP.

But yes, if you ask me as a coach, go for hourly lol. Your EV is higher there unless u can guarantee success.

CFP is the better way of doing things and the value exchange is closer to what it "should" be.
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