Because it's also their bot detection/deterring tool. People seem to underestimate the importance and value of this aspect of STPs.

Because it adds a fun element to the games and according to RIO 90% of users love this fun and innovative idea.

Because it makes RIO different and is helping them to distinguish themselves and build their brand.

There is a very easy way to find out if people really love STP so much ... let players choose between STP tables and non-STP with simply lower rake (even sized down a bit, e.g. 45% vs 51%), and see which format players will take given the choice. Btw, I am a recreational player

Every other site i know doesn't make you WIN your rakeback. The mcdonalds analogy is very silly. Everybody involved in pots contributes to the sites rake even if they're not the ones that 'paid' it. In yout redundant mcdonalds analogy it is the equivalent to the low paid worker getting no healthcare or company pension because they don't 'win' a better paying job with the company. But there's no need for analogies - the situation is easy tto understand without the comparison.

As opposed to forcing them to win pots to get any rb at all?

How does it deter bots?

Phil discussed this in his posts and I believe in his latest Pokerlife podcast. You can look that up for greater detail.

Basically, since STPs vary in size it's very difficult to program bots to adjust correctly. And the way player reacts to STPs with their sizing could raise a red flag that it might be a bot and prompt their security team to monitor that account.

It's also an annoying thing for bot programmers to deal with which serves as a deterrent.

Ok thanks for clarifying, sounds interesting.

I believe not nearly enough liquidity on site to break pools in half.

Not yet, sure ... I also didn't mean right now, but I did not clearly state that. Way more important stuff currently on the site's to-do, for sure, but once out of beta, with some liquidity on the site ... when the novelty factor of STP runs out, I would not be surprised at all if given the choice, players would gravitate to a simple lower flat rake

Stop framing the rakeback system like you have to take all these extra steps.

STP is the only system I know that gives you rakeback through playing the game you came there to play.

No opting in (which recs don't always realise they need to do), none of that chest bull****, none of that "I feel like doing something else right now but if I play another 2000 hands before midnight I can reach 40% rakeback!"
STP is the only system I know which doesn't have you waste your time to get rakeback.

What do you come to poker sites to do? Play poker. What do you have to do to get your rakeback? Play poker. No bull****.


Take a more straightforward rakeback system.
Let's say a rec and a reg put in 500 hands each. The reg naturally wins more. The reg won 50% more pots, and "paid" $15 in rake. The rec won less, and "paid" $10 in rake. Both are qualified for 50% rakeback.

The reg gets back $7.50 cash, and the rec only gets $5. That's one way rakeback could be interpreted.

The way you're interpreting it is that both players paid into the same pot, and contributed $12.50 each so should get $6.25 rakeback each.


IMO both are equally valid, and by the former definition RIO is doing no wrong - all parties get 51% rakeback. Guess Phil will have to put a disclaimer that says "up to" 51% rakeback depending on how he wants to interpret rake.

There is often a bottom line, and RIO's is, it doesn't matter if I don't like it or some of you don't like it, or even hate it, as long as some love it enough to carve out a niche and thrive. What they don't want is everyone saying "yeah okay." STP allows them to stand out in a crowd, and has enough advantages and disadvantages to at least make people think, and for some to overlook the disadvantages.

Lol no it's literally the exact opposite of what you're saying. People come to poker sites to MAKE MONEY and GAMBLE. If people want to play poker they can use free apps on facebook. What do you have to do to get your rakeback? 'Play poker' on every other site yes, but on RIO you have to WIN POTS. You don't seem clear on this.

Nope, all parties have the chance to win rakeback. At 51% for every single person? Doubtful. All parties playing roulette also have the chance to win. This isn't the same as everyone winning.

Why are you making out like they are some philanthropic company? They are in it to make money. Yeah, they might want to be different and whatever but it's a pure profit exercise at the end of the day regardless of what the owners say. Nobody runs for-profit companies with any other goal than making as much profit as possible.

Or maby it could tank there working capitol?
Every casino/site screws us. these guys just seam to be offering some lube first. Whatever. I still cant deposit from my card and im not using "MoBetta" or whatever that **** is?
P.S.
Do you even work with RIO? Im wondering why your speaking on there behalf?

So you're telling me people don't come to poker sites to play poker? This is what you're saying to back up your point? Has to be a troll, but I'll continue to bite so no one is misled.

As opposed to every poker other site where the aim is to lose pots? You keep implying that just because it's a splashed pot recs will start complaining "Ugh now I have to try and win this hand to get some rakeback!" So what were they doing in all the other hands? Trying to lose?


A player plays at a 3/10 skill level and wins pots (and pays rake) 3/10. His skill also equates to winning 3/10 of the splashed pots, getting 3/10 rakeback. So he's getting the full 51% rakeback advertised.



This concept shouldn't be so confusing for people who can supposedly compute pot odds. With stars rake, they offer a game that has consistent dead money of - let's say - 1.3bb paid by the blinds.


With RIO you have varying blind levels, but the average dead money is 1.4bb from both blinds. Which site would you rather play on?
No **** you have to win pots, it's the same on every site.

I'm not, and you just have to read my previous posts to understand that. I have already pointed out this is a business venture that has more chance to succeed with STP. I do agree with some of your arguments, but I can see both sides.

Forward thinking entrepreneurs can make money with quality products from a company with decent customer service. Not all profit has to come from ripping off customers in the short term, telling them everything is okay, and treating them with total contempt. Profit and customer satisfaction are not mutually exclusive.

This is a business venture, but appears to be more customer oriented than most. There will have been a boatload of money poured into this from, I imagine, a number of very rich people, and rich people don't tend to do that without some reasonable chance of getting a boatload of it back. To that end I am sure there has been a great deal of long term planning with a lot of vested interests having their say. In all honesty I am not sure how much Mr Galfond is in charge. I do know if it fails he is the public face and the one who carries the can.

I cannot fault the way they are building things. Look how active this thread is already for such a small site. Their strategic planning has for me been carried off with such brilliance and efficiency, I half expect to see their tanks rolling down my high street in a couple of years time.

The above is pretty much how I feel about this place. Seriously though, if you want to make a good point, don't misinterpret or put words into others' mouths in order to forward your own opinions. How do I feel about the place? Pretty much the same as all the other posts, both positive and negative, but with the accent on the positive.

It will probably deter bot makers initially but eventually won't they be in bot paradise once they find a way to program a bot for splash pots? I mean bots will destroy humans and find a greater edge playing those spots. Only a matter of time.

Add in that players can't even spot these bots anymore, this will be bot paradise soon! I am sure a whole army of programmers are already trying to create a bot specifically to take down those splashed pots!!

Uh...the point up for discussion was playing poker AND getting rakeback. Your response to that was that people come to poker sites to 'play poker' as if rakeback isn't important.





Are you a bit puddled? You have to win pots IN ORDER TO GET ANY RAKEBACK AT ALL. On other sites, you win rakeback even when you're on a downswing and not winning your EV at showdown in PLO.

This isn't hard to understand.

please do not let the urge to try and teach kindergarden math to people.

you want those guys in your tables

Squirrel, Josso, and ToiletBowler - I appreciate you trying to explain what I've already tried and failed to

And hey! Since it's such a hot topic - speaking of Splash The Pot, we have a new promo going on right now!

It's Mid Stakes Week at the NLHE tables. We've added €50NL and €200NL to our lobby, and €50NL through €500NL are being Super-Splashed from now through Friday with 70% rakeback.

https://www.runitonce.eu/promotions/mid-stakes-week/

If you were waiting for either of these stakes, or for another reason to hop into the action, now's the time!

Thanks for the thoughtful review, SmokedTruth.

I agree with most of your points and ideas. We're working on further custimization on the preset buttons (though not 10 buttons!) and on a number of other UI improvements.

I'm glad you've found the games high quality - that's been my experience as well from what I've seen. I'm not sure why €10NL hasn't taken off while the stakes around it have - perhaps because is wasn't one of our initial stakes at launch.


We do care about SNGs! I can't know for sure, but I think you'll be happy with what we have planned. I don't have an ETA for you yet, but when the time is near, I'll let everyone know.

Thanks for giving the site a try during beta and for sharing your ideas. I think/hope you'll be happy with the direction we take things moving forward!

hey Phil...what's the action like on PLO? i'm going to deposit as soon as i get a windows machine up and running to try it out for myself.

Wrong. I replied to clarify your issue with having to “fight” for your rakeback. That’s the issue you’ve been pressing. Which makes out like you have to take extra steps to get your rakeback. That’s not true at all, you play the same game of poker.

Yes you have to win to get rakeback ...but what were you trying to do before? Trying to lose?

51% rakeback on average = 51% rakeback. So now your issue is that you’re afraid you will run bad in splashed pots? That’s not an issue with the site, that’s an issue with your mental game. Don’t think anyone who runs good in those pots will be complaining, which will be you 50% of the time.

If that extra variance isn’t for you find another site to nit it up on. But don’t make out like RIO is misleading players, 51% rakeback is what players get. By your logic, if RIO really wanted to be misleading they could say “up to 75% rakeback” because some people will run good in the splashed pots.

There is no point talking to you about this so i'd prefer if you stopped responding to my posts. Your absolute disregard for the actual facts and for calling things what they're not is painting you out a sycophant to be honest.

You take the issue of NEEDING TO WIN POTS TO WIN RAKEBACK which is different to EVERY other poker site, and then claim you don't have to do anything extra other than just 'play poker' to win rakeback. So yes. You do need to do something 'extra' compared to EVERYWHERE else - WIN POTS TO WIN RAKEBACK. I'm not sure how much more clear this could be.

You take 51% average rb for an entire player pool and then say this means everyone gets 51% rakeback, despite the fact that average means by definition that some people will get LESS.

There's nothing i can even say to your absurd conclusions at this point so it's best to end the discussion here.

I will be depositing a bit on RIO to test the site out for myself in the next few days. As a break even/slightly losing PLO player i will probably earn some splashed pots so we'll see how it evens out for me.

You'll definitely want the last word despite there being no point in continuing this discussion so.

Yeah you’re right in fact I avoid playing on some sites because I have to take extra steps to win money.

Like flop sets or bink draws. I know on average I should hit my 4 card flush draws 33% after the flop, but I only completed the flush 10% in my last 500 hands so the site must be falsely advertised as a fair site that doesn’t rig its games.

I’m not continuing the discussion for you mate it’s for anyone who sees your comment and could be put off by your misunderstanding.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-fair-1737749/

ok?

While STP exists, isn't the simple way to look at it as that you pay their gross rake as normal, but then RIO gives you multiple opportunities to win "free money" by their increasing the players' pots by random amounts? They determine the total amount they add to the pots by halving the total rake they have collected and divvying that amount up between multiple random pots.

Perhaps if it wasn't called the word rakeback, (and maybe there is a vague argument that it should not be, as the invented word has come to be accepted as giving individual players some of their own rake paid back by other methods), you would then accept their system as being simply the clever and unique marketing tool that it is?

I'm not saying it's not clever - i've said several times it's a good idea for NLHE but can increase variance at plo.

it is what it is and people seem to like it so as i've said, the only way to know just how much you can win will be to play for a decent sample and see for yourself depending on your own playing style.

i'll be probably putting some money on there later today so i'll see how it goes as a break even plo player.