Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views and gossip.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-17-2009, 06:49 AM   #101
Johnny Hughes
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: West Texas
Posts: 2,144
Re: A Word To The Wise

One of the top con men on the road cold decked me and the table in the casino in Ruidoso, and it was only 10 buck limit. He had the Indians fooled and dropped the limit down because some good players were in town that he feared, and in feared.

He brought the deck in under a chip box, and was helping the dealer count the rack. She had already shuffled. The give a way was that his partner..whom I had already knocked off..kept raising with a pair of threes before the flop and he kept raising with two nines. He caught four nines on fourth, but on the flop, everyone had some big draw. He just wanted to show me he could do it, because the money was wrong. We are old rivals, and he is a top con man. His picture is in Doyle's Super System book of the players at the first World Series. He's still out there. Would name him, but I don't knock another man's prop.

I have a couple of friends who help the Indians count their money.
Johnny Hughes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 07:02 AM   #102
bugman68
adept
 
bugman68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Cumberland, MD
Posts: 972
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by _UM View Post
hmmm, I don't think so. The only time I was thru Baltimore was on my way to florida and we only stayed there for a night or 2 at most. I think jack and Jills was the spot then but I think the action had kinda died down by the time we got there. This was in the early 90's.

If you guys do a thread about road stories I would be more than happy to contribute. I don't have any from the old days exacatly(still in my early 30's), I'll leave that to Jay and the others mentioned, but I do have some pretty good road/pool/poker/vegas/etc stories.
there was still alot of action at jack n jills in the early 90s especially one pocket
bugman68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 02:56 PM   #103
quirkasaurus
old hand
 
quirkasaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,701
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by veeRob View Post
I was just informed of this thread and thought I'd give you all my comments. I work on the show and know the dealer in this clip personally.

Most of what I wanted to say has already been said in this thread. It's poor technique, unacceptable, whatever you'd like to call it. But I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that that's where it ends. The dealer is a close family friend of the production company that produces High Stakes Poker, and he wouldn't be risking his job, let alone his personal relationships, to palm a few bucks. Do I have proof of this? No, but I know the dealer's character, and I just don't see that happening. I'm not trying to prove anything, just informing the group of what I know about the dealer in this case.

To answer someone else's question about how the show works... the players are responsible for their own money. The table is under constant surveillance -- more so than a regular poker game. On top of casino security, a floorman is nearby supervising, and a staff of about 50 people making the show are constantly watching. While it is not inconceivable that a dealer COULD steal from the pot, it is highly unlikely.
Um.... ok, it's highly unlikely. But it is impossible to go and check?
After all, you've mentioned that you have all this security, all these camera, we know the exact time and place of the suspicious behavior... etc... All you gotta do is recall the action, then count the chips that get shoved to the player. I'm pretty sure those players know how much money they show up with, so it should be easy to check all of this.

Additionally, since these accusations are serious, and you work on the show, and this dealer you know, it should be well within your power to review tapes of this dealer's dealing.

My point is simply: you clearly have a ton of resources available to you to get to the bottom of this. I would recommend doing so and eliminate all doubt.

Not to do so certainly doesn't do anyone any favors.
quirkasaurus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 03:13 PM   #104
J0hny
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
J0hny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,398
Re: A Word To The Wise

Nice read op
J0hny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 04:18 PM   #105
MCdisciple
journeyman
 
MCdisciple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 293
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
I think the dealer only did this because he was intending to grab cash as well.

However, it's definitely not proper procedure.
He could use this as an excuse if he was pulled up by one of the players.

Although the good character of the dealer has been mentioned, there aren't too many opportunites where he would deal a game this high and might be too much of a temptation.

I am a live noob, before reading this thread I didn't even know dealers weren't supposed to do that. Thank you Touppe Jay for bringing this sort of thing to my attention.
MCdisciple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 05:42 PM   #106
Yowserrrs
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,347
Re: A Word To The Wise

If there is nonpublic footage still out there and someone wanted to bet, I would watch the rest YouTube videos.

If this was the only time he had handled chips in this manner, I'd take him being guilty at even odds. This was def a favorable set of circumstances regarding preflop action and table conditions so would be too much of a coincidence otherwise.
Yowserrrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 05:51 PM   #107
Yowserrrs
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,347
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by barryg1 View Post
It's far-fetched to believe the dealer would steal under these circumstances, but on the other hand, you can be assured that you will run across several people with schemes to steal your money over the course of a long poker career.
This response sounds like I'm not going to rock the boat to find out.
Yowserrrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 06:30 PM   #108
Bulletproof Monk
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bulletproof Monk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Best in the world at what I do
Posts: 22,218
Re: A Word To The Wise

i think one thing is that in dealer school they are probably not taught how to handle cash on the table. the fact he has to pick up cash is what is causing him to cup his hand.

im going with nervous dealer not thinking being a lot more likely than dealer stealing on live tv....

but i think this is still a good post because in most spots when this occurs the dealer will be stealing, so thanks jay.
Bulletproof Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 07:51 PM   #109
Toupee Jay
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 657
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Hughes View Post
I have been doing a long interview via email with a man with the absolute top knowledge of cheating. I know a great deal about it also, but I never cheat. The dealer is doing a move, but may not steal a thing. If you have a move, you do it the same way whether you are stealing or not. This move would work with "chip cop" a sticky substance you put on the palm where you just hit the chip, it sticks. You might work all night with the move, then apply the substance right as your shift is about up.

When I was a teenager, the ultimate road gambler showed me all the moves and all the cheating devices in his magic closet. Crooked dice..six-ace flats, loads, edge work and all manner of marked cards. Hold out machine, used only once because it make a sound. It is fishing line, plastic levers, worn under the coat, cost 500 bucks.

If someone moves their hand funny, or ROLLS THAT DECK OVER, they are getting ready to cheat if everything is right. His cocktail waitress spills a drink, he goes south with some black chips. You won't see card manipulation cheating often. You probably won't see a cold deck. I caught Tommy Thomas, son of Titanic Thompson, holding out. He had thrown a cooler that I did not catch, but suspected.

I am researching and writing about gambling full time, and love it, especially the books about the old days. There is not enough attention to cheating. The generation that knew about that is almost gone.
Thanks for chiming in Johhny. I don't know you but respect your opinion. We are two old school gamblers who have seen it all, so we both know what is possible. Very true that someone who is going to make a move (like the one shown here) will do it over and over again, so the players are numb to it.

Someone mentioned that it appears the dealer may have been struggling to move the chips into the center. I will only say this in response. ANY poker player with no dealing skills at all has no problem shoving chips any way he wants. It takes literally no skill whatsoever to shove or slide a pile of chips with your hand. EVERYONE knows how to do this. In fact, I would go so far as to say it's the easiest thing a dealer has to do. So once again why is a "skilled" dealer having a problem?

Criticize away but I have a BIG problem when I see dealers grabbing chips like this. If it happens in a game I'm playing in, I will stop them and ask them what's going on. That's usually enough to make them stop. They know someone is watching them.

I have sat in games where the dealer is cutting the pot and watched him take excessive chips ostensibly making change. All the chips first go into his box and then the change comes back and the drop is made. Every time he did this he was stealing a $5 chip (it was a 15-30 game). I was the only one at the table who noticed this and these were regular players. I was winning pretty good in the game but I still got up to cash out and told the dealer that it was a good game for him too when I was leaving. He gave me a funny look but we both knew what I referring too.

Last edited by Toupee Jay; 11-17-2009 at 08:09 PM.
Toupee Jay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 08:04 PM   #110
Toupee Jay
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 657
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by barryg1 View Post
Your opponents can collude or mark the cards. Dealers can run up a deck and be in with a player. And chips may get stolen from the pot.

It's all possible and all of it has happened to me. Obviously, I only know the times I've caught it. I think this dealer was just struggling with scooping in cash and chips at the same time, something that doesn't happen in our games except on HSP.

It's far-fetched to believe the dealer would steal under these circumstances, but on the other hand, you can be assured that you will run across several people with schemes to steal your money over the course of a long poker career. It's probably more important to know who you're dealing with, than to expect protection from correct technique. Of course you should insist on correct technique, but that is little assurance that someone who is out to get you will not find a way.

Barry

Thank you Barry for offering your opinion. You're a great player and a fine example for the younger players to follow. I like the way you handle the beats that are a part of poker. I've never played the big games but I have won and lost thousands in one day. And I've learned to roll with the punches too. There will be good days and bad in gambling.

All that said, when I see a dealer grabbing chips like this, I will not sit still and say nothing. And I don't think you will either. All the best my fellow tribesman!

Last edited by Toupee Jay; 11-17-2009 at 08:10 PM.
Toupee Jay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 08:07 PM   #111
Toupee Jay
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 657
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulletproof Monk View Post
i think one thing is that in dealer school they are probably not taught how to handle cash on the table. the fact he has to pick up cash is what is causing him to cup his hand.

im going with nervous dealer not thinking being a lot more likely than dealer stealing on live tv....

but i think this is still a good post because in most spots when this occurs the dealer will be stealing, so thanks jay.
You grab cash with your fingers, you scoop chips with the side of your hand. It's not hard. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record.
Toupee Jay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 08:20 PM   #112
ActionJeff
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ActionJeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,653
Re: A Word To The Wise

Feeling pretty uncomfortable right now remembering counting down my stack after winning a sizeable pot with 99 in Bobbys room early in te WSOP action and thinking I should have more $ and then just dismissing it. This was at a table with lots of cash and lots of socialization, and I won the pot off on the side of the table, and got shipped a 10k wad in the hand.

Don't remember anything else including the dealer and unlikely anything happened but damn. Never know. I mean a dealer got caught for palming chips at the same table later that summer

thanks OP for the warning, always good for a reminder to keep your eyes on the prize
ActionJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 08:25 PM   #113
highcaliber
journeyman
 
highcaliber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Boston
Posts: 277
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomerNoonJr View Post
If you take money from Jamie Gold is it still considered stealing?

And ty OP, very helpful post, I'll keep this in mind.
HAHAHAHA....... Your absolutely right!! Jamie Gold gives his money away for free anyway so what's the difference!
highcaliber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 08:29 PM   #114
highcaliber
journeyman
 
highcaliber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Boston
Posts: 277
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by chardonis View Post
All the OP wanted to do is just give a friendly heads up. I am thankful for the heads up, and I'm sure others are too. OP just ignore the insults.
agreed. Thanks for the heads up OP, most of us non-miserable DB's know your just trying to look out for us. Much appreciated.
highcaliber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 08:33 PM   #115
sfcard
adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,141
Re: A Word To The Wise

My apologies if this has been covered, I've only half kept up with this thread. I agree with people saying it's pretty unlikely that a dealer would attempt this while dealing a televised game, though I don't think it's impossible. To me the bigger issue is that a dealer who is so comfortable handling chips this way may have have learned for a reason. Whether or not the dealer stole in the hand in question is a separate issue.
sfcard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 09:40 PM   #116
critikal
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,329
Re: A Word To The Wise

Thanks for the advice Jay, I'll look out for it next time I'm in Vegas. What do you say when you see a dealer doing this? Just ask him to move the chips into the pot in a different way or something a little more intimidating?
critikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 10:34 PM   #117
Lottery Larry
Home Poker Pimp
 
Lottery Larry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: HP in da HOOWWSSS! (NW of Philly)
Posts: 19,603
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toupee Jay View Post
But it sure is tempting when you see $1,000 chips getting thrown around like confetti. Especially if you have perfected this move.
How easy would it be for a dealer, or a confederate of a dealer, to cash in said $1k chip?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toupee Jay View Post
I was winning pretty good in the game but I still got up to cash out and told the dealer that it was a good game for him too when I was leaving. He gave me a funny look but we both knew what I referring too.
Why wouldn't you warn the other players, and/or the house? Or do you assume the house is in on it?
Lottery Larry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 12:31 AM   #118
AnneFranks_DrumKit
journeyman
 
AnneFranks_DrumKit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 386
Re: A Word To The Wise

if thats the 'palming' you're talking about at the 7:20 mark...then lol

sorry, thats some seriously sloppy shiz right there.....he might as well be doing it with salad tongs.

Nothing to see here.
AnneFranks_DrumKit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 12:52 AM   #119
Shady7877
newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 45
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomerNoonJr View Post
If you take money from Jamie Gold is it still considered stealing?

And ty OP, very helpful post, I'll keep this in mind.
This!
Shady7877 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 12:56 AM   #120
Shady7877
newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 45
Re: A Word To The Wise

I would "think" this being televised AND real High Stakes with Big name pros, the pros would have "some" say as to who the dealer is. They probably know them all and who is better than others. And honest to boot!

And I wouldn't think even a dumb theif would try this with TV cameras to the side and security cameras overhead! (But I'm not too naive to believe it happens).
Shady7877 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 03:16 PM   #121
Toupee Jay
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 657
Re: A Word To The Wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady7877 View Post
I would "think" this being televised AND real High Stakes with Big name pros, the pros would have "some" say as to who the dealer is. They probably know them all and who is better than others. And honest to boot!

And I wouldn't think even a dumb theif would try this with TV cameras to the side and security cameras overhead! (But I'm not too naive to believe it happens).

RULE # 1 - DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING!

For those who thanked me, you're welcome. I was only trying to point out to any interested people that things like this can and do happen, and even moreso in bigger games. The reward is very tempting for a "skilled" dealer. And for those that think I'm paranoid, that's okay too. I can handle the criticism.

YES, I will definitely say something if I see something funny going on in a game I'm in. I can be very vocal. I caught a dealer at the Bike years ago stealing chips out of the pot. He would just drop one into his tray during a big pot. Once again, no one else noticed. It was in the VERY sweet 15-30 Hi-Lo Split game that used to run everty day back in the 80's. I totally busted this guy, I was so hot the second time I saw it. I told him to put the chip back in the pot! He acted totally innocent, like I was making it up. THe other players sat there surprised at my comments. A floorman was called over and I told him what I saw the dealer do. The dealer naturally said I was wrong.

The floorman finally told the dealer to continue dealing and he would "check" it out. This is something that you might be able to see on the tapes. That dealer was no longer working at the Bike the next time I came in. I talked to my friend who was one of the bosses. I asked what happened to so and so. He said he got canned for stealing chips! HELLO!

P.S. Every situation is different! Sounds just like poker, huh? Sometimes I will speak up, especially if it is a casino I frequent. In some spots it may be better just to leave the game. I was playing a private game at a pool tourney. It was only a 10-20 Hold 'Em game but far better than any game you would find in a casino. Before I sat down I asked the guy who was running (and dealing) the game how much he was cutting the pots. He said $5 after $50 and no more. Okay with me, so I got in.

Early on I saw that he was grabbing a second chip out of big pots ($10). I was sitting in the five seat, directly across from him. Once again the other players were oblivious to this. I didn't say a word. The game was so good I won over $800 in a couple of hours anyway. I NEVER tipped the dealer and when I cashed out, he (the same guy) had his hand out for a tip. I looked him in the eye and told him he already got his tip, out of the pots I won. He just shrugged his shoulders and said nothing!

Last edited by Toupee Jay; 11-18-2009 at 03:43 PM.
Toupee Jay is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive