Worst example ever. You are not a poker arts employee. They do not pay you a spry.

@randommuppet, I already explained that the prices can rise in every industry. Oh "you don't work for pokerstars so they can rise the prices as they want". You don't work for gas stations, supermakets etc would u still say the same if out of nowhere they decided to rise the prices 10x more? Hell, I'll open a gym with a contract, start charing 30usd per month and then announce that the cost will be 60 usd/month because I want to push beginners into the gym, so the sacrifices will be made by the regular customers. [in real life this doesn't happen anywhere, only in poker this seems to be acceptable]

Prices can rise in EVERY INDUSTRY. Poker seems to be this special case where companies can play with us as much as they want (decreasing fpp value is the most evident one), and the brainwashed customers still defend the company LOL
When I own a business, I'd love to get customers like you guys. Where I can rise the prices out of the blue and all my customers keep defending me. Tell me one sector where this happens...
An explanation can be that most of the comments I see are from 10 year old accounts; This I can understand why u act like stars employees - it's because you are thinking that this time you'll final win at poker after 10 years failing but u won't, u'll still lose as always. You lack fundamentals, doesn't matter that huds,scripts disappear you simply are not good enough (you can be if you work hard).

I'm all for the recreationals. I'll give up RAKEBACK to have a site full of recreationals, and a policy that would say by this time there will be 10x more recs playing because of such and such. Right now, this isn't whats going to happen. Everything will stay the same, and on top of that we will lose money. this changes are 2% for recreationals, and 98% for amaya

@lifeguard and @Dominic, I rarely read posts that are 5 lines of text long. I can understand, just don't read all at once and you'll get the idea.

@PTLou,
Glad that I could make a stars employee like you saying that what pokerstars want is to make money and this change won't address the recreationals. That's a win for me where previously u were buying the stuff they released on the blog.

It's part of the brainwash. You gotta keep the vague words, so the masses keep thinking that this will be good, and in the end don't question nothing. Not saying everything and keep people wondering what these terms mean, is key on this operation

you have been sort of amusing in a freakish way, but if you are struggling with the above words and their meanings, and how they impact players and sites, then maybe poker isn't the best job for you.

Fair enough, you make a good point about people over-attributing Bovada's success to anon tables. But when I say they have taken a rec friendly approach I'm not only referring to anon tables. I'm also referring to hiding full tables, the 4 table cap and not having a rewards program to incentivize regs.

Also you forgot that Bovada has grown partly due to the fact that they continue to service the American market while obviously Stars and FTP have stopped doing so.

Anyways. maybe you're right but I just wanted to point out that I was talking about more than just anon tables.

in the golden years some poker player made an insane amount of money. they started coaching websites, wrote books, set up cartels, put money into software et cetera ... just to squeeze out some dollars more. even it was quite obvious, that not only the recs will loose money faster, but making the regs better. the winners always kept saying "oh, you have to improve, to keep winning" having no pity for folks left behind.

it was like in this game shows, where you had some time to grab the most money you can. nobody cared if or who much the recs loose. so when players use every opportunity to make some extra buck it's just wp, but if an operator tries to run a business it's just 'zomg'.

besides that it's hilarious, that basically all operators made or making attempts to go full rec model and no one cares at all. but if PS does something similar it's always a big drama b/c somehow folks believes that they have a guarantee for anything.

i'm self employed for 7+ years now and i (try to) make a living in the poker industry. there were so many set backs and pay cuts and being frustrated seems just natural. but i don't think i ever complained in a public forum (e.g. for freelancers), that a company owns me something, because i think they are making enough money and should offer me a fair deal.

PokerStars is going to take years just to pay off their billions in debt.

A year ago their stock was at 30.70. It's at 22.72 now. They've been struggling to meet investors expectations.

Obviously the overall market is up over the last 12 months.

I don't know why you, or anyone else, thinks they're some rich Apple-lookalike company.

Their ROE is 4.55%. For Apple it's 46.25%.

Apple is over ten times as profitable.

If Amaya makes money they'll obviously use it to pay off their billions in junk (high-yield) debt, not helping the ecosystem.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=AAPL+Key+Statistics

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=AYA+Key+Statistics

From the OP

Ironic that you should pick this example at a time when the golfing authorities have banned the anchored putting stroke (chest putter) because it confers too big of an advantage. Just like a HUD really...

Except that's a professional golf league, wherein keeping the game competitive is important to a lot of highly influential entities, who are not the golfers or the course, such as sporting goods and media companies. This is not really analogous of the professional poker arena, as professionals are more often than not competing against amateurs. Professional golfers subject to the rules of the PGA play exclusively against other professionals who must compete for the right to play, creating a self-leveling playing field.

Then they should be making this reason transparent instead of pretending to make the poker-ecosystem better. They are still leader in the online poker industry. Admitting that the business doesn't run well and making appropiate changes shouldn't be too hard.
Appropiate would be:
a) to get rid of the debts asap
b) keeping the player volume up as much as possible (they won't raking in a 3rd what they raked in 2015, if they pull this one through)
c) honoring at least some formats as a true game of skill instead of destroying them

From my perspective they are shooting themselves in the foot with their newest changes. Surely fishes don't have the incentive to play poker in order to get as good as some of the pros, but the problem is they will find empty tournaments and empty cash game lobbies as already happened at most other sites.

umm... where in the post that you quoted did I say they wouldn't take the money for themselves? btw I'm well versed on Pokerstars as a company and doubt that there's many posters (if any) on this forum that have been able to predict with accuracy, as I have, which way this company is going over the past 5 years.

It would have been a dull life if he wasted a second regretting starting this thread.

Yea, but the putter ban in golf was pointless and changed nothing. One of the stupid changes introduced by the older professionals who were tired of seeing their records destroyed by the younger generation. They're going after the golf ball next...which is even dumber. Modern golf courses have been designed around the newer balls and clubs. Dialing those back at this point will hurt the game.

Adam Scott is putting WAY BETTER with the short putter. He'll probably win 5 majors with the short putter now. It'll be the best thing that happened to his career and he was one of the players whining about it the most.



I think HUDS give more of an advantage in poker than long putters in golf. I doubt will see any pros increasing their win rates without HUDS...where as we have golfers starting to produce better results with the shorter putter.

I don´t play much online, but i was kinda surprised to see some 'regs' @ NL50 with a W$@SD over 60%. Whatever changes Stars make, this kind of play must become unprofitable.

Guys let's remind that HUDs are a complete distraction regarding the VIP program scandal.

Regarding huds, all I can say is that the same losing players will get crushed. It's just the nature of the game, better people win more often. As in everything.

I bet if the huds were a black market (which they could dangerously turn into), the ppl who didnt have them would think that if they hud a hud they could beat the games EASILY. People just can't accept that there are some people way way better at them because they put more time, effort and thought about poker.

To sum, losing players are thinking that without huds they will suddenly turned to be winners. Ain't gonna happen. The way it didn't happen in the anon tables, where the weaker players got crushed as well.

The huds (i never used a super hud) are MUCH more helpful versus regs. Weaker players are still to easy to exploit and detect. I dont need a hud to beat any type of recreational player nor either all of the regs need them to win money from less skilled oponnents

Now that is a well written and coherent post. I guess you've sobered up from yesterday

I agree with all you say about HUDS. winners still win. losers still lose. HUDS which enable more multi-tabling, simply speed up that process. If they speed it up to much, then the site loses.

regarding your self named "VIP Program Scandal", I'd say this.

Quite logical for you to say something like...

"VIP changes are dumb, Stars is dumb because they don't even understand that they will make less money now due to XYZ"

Its absurd for you or anyone else to say something like...

"VIP changes are dumb because I will not make as much money"

Clearly, "in real life", you've never been a customer of Cox Cable or a member of any number of airline loyalty programs.

Also, you really think there is that much of a material difference between rakeback and FFPs ?

PTLou,

You can PM me if you're a stars employee, I swear I won't tell anyone.

Every company has the right to think that ultimate goal is to MAXIMIZE profit. At the end of the november you'll receive an electricity bill 100x times higher, because oh well the companies want to make money so they should ignore their customers. They can do what they want to maximize their profits.

It's 2015, customer relationship is KEY. It was that that made pokerstars the LEADER in poker industry. The difference is they are building relationships with customer since the start.

The recent policy is the complete oposite. Advertising that a guy makes SNE next year he will have 70% r.b and then not honoring and reducing to half is not a scandal?

FFS, I've a gym membership which is deducted every month. Imagine if suddenly they took 3x more out of my account, as they want to buy new machines and invest more money to attract new people into the gym.. Or you have 3% return on an investment X and they reduced to 1% because they want to buy new pcs for the banks office...

This is a scandal in every industry; but in poker, this seems to be fine. I just can't understand. I could understand rake inflation, redistribute the rewards to the recreationals, limit number of tables, etc
BUT THIS IS HAPENNING NOT TO ACHIEVE A BETTER "ECOSYSTEM" -as they love to say- But to take as much money as possible from poker!!

awesome example with the airlines... Add the loyalty program of gas stations as well LOL where you have to spend 5k usd to win a mouse to the pc.

Sure me and someone else will complain with loyalty programs that are basically useless to begin with

I think this is the part of the thread that has kept me most amused. I have not hidden my identity on 2+2, many here and in the industry know who I am.

anyway, I cant speak to the contractual or ethical relationship between stars and their SNEs, VIPs because its a part of the online industry I don't know very much about (almost all of my experience is in the live poker market)

If you are asserting they are not meeting their contractual obligation to you, then you have something to talk about. please explain more.

If you are asserting they are not meeting their ethical or moral obligation to you then meh. stand in line. call ralph nader. etc etc

Gzesch was correct is his reference to other industry loyalty programs. they change all the time, companies can likely do it at will per TOC, and the changes in my experience are usually around the customer getting less and the company keeping more.

@PTLou,and gazesch

You're comparing loyalty schemes that aren't comparable, because they can't be considered loyalty schemes to begin with. Who cares if they finish my Gas Station card, if all I get after paying 5k in gas is a radio? I didn't even need a radio in the first place, its 15 bucks.

It's uncomparable because the money that a regular company wins by reducing their loyalty schemes is a 1/10000 that stars wins with this measures.

"If you are asserting they are not meeting their contractual obligation to you, then you have something to talk about. please explain more.

If you are asserting they are not meeting their ethical or moral obligation to you then meh."

But now we should've a contract for everything? Sign a contract with every supermarket, store, to not rise prices 100x?
If there's no ethics, morals and commitment to what they advertised to the customer (look at Baazov hilarious post on 2+2), by your logic we probably should sign a contract with every company; as every company have the right to maximize profits and not honour the word to its customers

1. Not true, why does everyone in favor of HUDs care so much then???

2. More delusional posting form a HUD proponent.


Here is what many of you all seem to be missing.

Rules aren't being changed, to then just be overlooked when they are violated. There will be clear cut rules. Violators of them rules I would suspect, are going to be risking losing their entire bankrolls to confiscation, possible legal repercussions, if not just being outright banned from Pokerstars for life.

Go ahead and do it. Worry about the consequences after you get busted. It's so clear some of you in this thread think it is going to just be such a sure thing, that some new-age HUDs will go undetected and without consequence. None of this is a joke with some easy workaround like some of you all seem to be thinking here. Its incredible some of the entitlement, you HUD users seem to have.

Also to think you are more sophisticated, and advanced than a multi billion dollar publicly traded company proves how laughable so many of you HUD users in this really are. Also how dependent you are on them.If they really don't matter that much why do you all even care so much then.

Now you can be seriously risking your long-term ability to play on Pokerstars thinking you are going to just skirt these new rules and processes. Its also why so many of you are thought of as pompous pricks, who often largely have an unrealistic sense of self worth pertaining to online pokers ecosystem. Changes are being made for a clear reason, because you all were a problem not some net-benefit at all. You took more than you ever gave back. Go ahead and try to circumvent these new clearly and publicly laid out changes.

I am eagerly awaiting the threads of some breakeven rakeback 'grinders' (lol) getting SNAPPED off for thinking none of this is detectable and so they will just go ahead and try to skirt the rules.

@Freedom, I said that I'm not an advanced hud user. My hud is normal. And ofcourse I'll never breach any of PS rules, I never did and never will. But opens space for black market idiots for sure

I guarantee you that recreationals will get killed without huds as well. Huds are much more useful vs regs. They get destroyed in anon tables as well, and the huds are useless there. You think what, understanding a HUD is a magical stuff that once you master it you can go to HSNL? There are guys that understand and use HUD much better than me at 5nl or even 10nl.

HUD is not a magic piece of software. Bad players will get destroyed in the same ways as before. I actually know some people that prefer to play without a hud, and play better without being distracted by numbers.
I'm actually much more fine that they ban huds (although It won't solve anything, but thats other story) than do this ridic 2016 VIP clubs.

HUDs make winners is one of the biggest myth among beginners. It's another non sense that will create the feeling of "one time" for reg-fish, but will soon realize that they will lose just as before. Blaming others(in this case programs) is the biggest factor why people don't evolve in the activities they want to succeed

Well assuming poker stars goal is to make money, which it is, than the obvious move is to ban all types of 3rd party huds, and provide their own very basic HUD that would help new and less experienced players get Basic strat down pretty quickly