You may be. However, PT, who you were saying is right, is talking about the advantages of NFT for gamers as a reason why people paying more for NFTs of photos than they would have paid for ownership in traditional contract form are not idiots. To be clear, you think they are idiots?

I also think there is zero connection but he posts this stuff without being corrected by people who know more than I do about NFTs, so perhaps there is a connection.

Ooh, the thread took a much more interesting turn. Thanks Lou, samooth, rick...and even Noobtard, for dialing it back a bit. I believe my own thinking on this is becoming a bit more balanced - obviously there are going to be a lot of scams/questionable investments out there, but I have more reason to believe now that there will be at least *some* with genuine value.

When I think about NFTs that are straight up art/collectibles, I would be worried about the supply side. As a comparison, I'll use sports cards, and I'm thinking about the 90s.

I was quite involved in the industry at the time, not really as an investor, but as someone who sold at card shows, and organized many card shows in the area and made some money off that end. What we saw was a lot of companies, some new, start making a lot more product. And we also saw people start collecting in a very serious way. In the 80s and earlier, not many people were serious collectors, so what was purchased wasn't looked after, and the numbers produced were far lower. Fast forward to the boom in the 90s, and people saw cards from the 60s, 70s, 80s worth a bunch of money, and they started snapping up all this new stuff figuring to make their big bucks. The problem is there was a huge glut in supply, and people cracking packs and putting everything in sleeves, or not even opening the boxes. Just about the only thing that really gained in value were the truly limited products. Now, that didn't kill the market, and I believe sports cards are having a pretty big resurgence these days (some of it tied to NFTs, I believe). But there is a lot of product that is, and will always be, pretty worthless. Thankfully, none of that product would have been purchased for really big $, so I doubt anyone got burned too badly.

While there are a lot of ways the comparison breaks down, I wonder if there are some similarities in that there is, or will be, a real glut in supply, and in this case, that potential seems much greater with pretty much anyone being able to create product. It's going to be difficult for the average person to separate the gimmicks from what has real value. And in some cases, what has real value today, might not in six months, or a year, or five years. Sports cards have a history to them - people know the major manufacturers who make quality product, who the depicted players are, and the value of the cards is largely tied to their scarcity and the quality of the depicted players (and similar things can be said about more "traditional" art and collectibles). The potential for outright scams seems far lower. NFTs are a real wild west right now for most people, and will remain that way for some time, I think. That's not to say they're inherently bad, and while it's unsettled like this I imagine there's a ton of money to be made for those who know what they are doing and/or are lucky. But a lot of risk for those who don't and/or aren't so lucky.

Of course my comments above are primarily targeted at the art/collectible NFTs that don't offer any additional value. There are a lot of other uses that have been discussed in this thread that offer a lot more utility, and I'd think very different "rules" will apply to how their value will hold up. And obviously I still have a very limited understanding of this, and don't even know what I don't know, so I might be completely full of ****.

A very interesting topic.

Clarifying NFT segment for your comparison was very important and noted. NFTs are taking so many forms and functions its hard to cast them all under one net. Sports Cards comparison is good. There is without question a massive glut of PFP (profile picture) cartoonish NFTs coming on to the market. They are just too easy to make and market. All hoping to strike lightning like CryptoPunks. Here is snapshot of a small sample that launched in the last week or so. Almost all of these will eventually be worthless, perfectly analogous to the shoeboxes full of baseball cards in attics. Of the 1000s of these PFP projects will one of these strike lighting, for sure, in the same way that it is certain someone will win the main next year.



PFPs are just one category of many in the "static" pic NFT market...you also have Photographs, Art, AI generated art, Computer Generated Art, and more. Now add to all those various forms of utility . Here is dumb example MetaGirlfriends NFT. owners are currently able to choose from a wide varirty of looks (traits), Many have several of these NFTs and can merge traits of two of these to form their perfect girl. They can also click remove their clothes In the future they will be doing more things with them in Virtual reality (pornhub meets PFP NFT?). 1000s of other forms of utility for NFT (Static computer generated art segment) will emerge. Some of those will be successful in maintain value forever, most will fail .




Going full circle, and something you correctly noted above, NFTs are not a single thing, they are already branching into a wide variety of form and function and will branch more.

*************************

Of much more importance is that NFTs are just the second use case real story here. Blockchain protocol and smart contracts. Crypto coins were the 1st use case. 100s more use case will develop in our lifetime

TCP/IP was just a protocol that kept track of data as it moved around, this lead to the Internet. Blockchain is a protocol that keep tracks of "things" as they move around. Its impact to society will be similar in magnitude as the internet.

Crypto currency were 1st. NFTs second. There will eventually be 100s of uses of blockchain protocol each changing the way society works, some in very small ways , some in substantial ways.

All started by a guy writing a short whitepaper about a computer protocol that could enable a new form of currency. All Hail Satoshi.

edit: back to the glut that Bobo brought up. I hope that all realized that snapshot above are not single PFP NFTs for sale. Each of those icons represent a Collection of 1000-10,000 individual NFTs that all share the same theme but vary slightly in some way. So yeah, thats a chit ton of baseball cards coming to market. Tons more each and everyday For exceeding demand for this category of NFT

Curious Lou. what %'s are you putting at the current art nft's?

from the "everyday scams" thread

one of the all time great posts in history of 2p2

I'm not sure I understand the question, could you please rephrase?



p.s. Snoop Dog is in, 19million followers. He just sent this out today ( OT PSA.... ETH=Myspace, Solana = Facebook).

NFT and tickets for events isn't about making them collectible its for the venue and to combat scalping and counterfeits.

There IS this but trust me its more "nft is the future due to security and proof of ownership" than it is about tokenized tickets and making them collectible... although if someone wants to show off all the events and concerts they've been to that is cool too. but nft as the future of sports/events is more similar to deeds, mortgages/contracts, healthcare and educational records being stored as an NFT than it is "collectibles"

Sorry, I was going between legit (bigger sucker scenario)/artificial inflation/money laundering

I have skimmed this thread and I still don't understand where NFT's get their intrinsic value from (other than their "rarity")

probably one of the best quotes ITT for people trying to wrap their heads around NFTs. They are more of a technology than a thing. They will find a place in many parts of business and society having utility that have nothing to do with current use cases. Logistics, Heatlhcare, Finance, Legal, MFG. etc etc

First lets take money laundering out of the convo. that has nothing to with NFTs. even within cypto currencies general consensus that even in the very early days (silk road), laundering /drug dealers use of crypto was for sure happening but likely grossly over reported.

In NFT scams are called rugs, or getting rugged. Someone with nefarious intent puts forth a roadmap and plan that is all BS. Sells NFTs and then either just vanishes or dumps a bunch on market and the runs, effectively pulling the rug our from investors/ NFT Holders. Rugs are prevalent in the NFT space but I 've never seen any data to quantify.

Much more common is NFTs that just dont gain traction as much as developers (thats what they call business owners in NFT space. weird I know) had hoped. Just kids with a dream type thing. well intentioned nothing nefarious. If you are talking PFP NFT Space , the VAST Majority fall into this space, though some still call this getting "rugged"

As far as other NFT spaces outside of PFP , hard to tell they are all so new, time will tell but will likely fall into similar ratios as above.

(all stuff I buy moons overnight so I dont have to worry about it )

i have assessed it on a very global scale; ofc i'm not gonna assess it in detail as this would require hundreds of hours of research and walls of text. i'm happy to discuss specific questions/topics, however. your posts (and other's) indicate that you're still trying to make sense of the benefits of NFTs in general. as pointed out, it makes much more sense to think of the benefits of decentralisation as a whole - it doesn't really matter whether certain features or concepts are achieved by using fungible or non-fungible tokens or a combi of both, it's just essential that blockchain tech allows for provable and secure tokenisation.

below i am linking a video that (critically) discusses a Grayscale (institutional crypto investment firm) report on the metaverse. the report can be found here: https://grayscale.com/learn/the-metaverse/.

ofc the creators of the video are not unbiased, but they are very transparent with their crypto holdings and - from my personal impression - try to analyse things critically, as is evident in this video.

while the metaverse is not the direct topic of this thread, i believe that this video covers a lot of topics that could be "food for thought" and open some people's mind to the possibilities of blockchain tech, including the use case of NFTs and the future of gaming. further research is always required though

this sort of reply is much appreciated, props to you

the point you're making is universally true independent of blockchain tech - companies will always try to maximise profits and there are a lot of suckers in every market. the internet drastically changed every country's economy and was a huge success, yet we had a dot-com bubble at the "beginning", where people bought highly overpriced shares in startups and lost a lot of money (directly and indirectly by triggering an economic crash). ofc there are a lot of suckers in the crypto market as well - again: that's why some people call it a NFT bubble.

bringing up ticketmaster in this context doesn't make sense to me, as blockchain tech (in theory and in many present cases in practice) removes the need of third parties to handle transactions. leagues/clubs can sell directly via blockchain, without having to rely on the likes of ticketmaster. the caveat to this is, for instance, that in order to resell NFT tickets, one has to use a NFT marketplace or a smart contract in some form - but at least there is open competition, which most likely results in lower fees (than what ticketmaster is charging for resales) for customers. there are many more advantages to using blockchain tech and not a centralised entity for ticket sales, some of which BrokeFish pointed out already.

ManCity (along with other high profile clubs like Juve or FC Porto) is already trying to maximise their profits using blockchain tech, but they currently do so by issuing fungible "fan tokens", not NFTs: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies...ity-fan-token/

these tokens give the holder "ownership of voting rights" - https://city.fantoken.com/. quote: "In the past, Fan Token holders of other clubs have voted on a host of things, including kit designs, bus designs, official team motto, and even starting XI". the issuing price was (afaik) 12.50€, and they minted 20million in total and issued 3.5million coins so far - i'll let you do the math. to me personally these voting rights seem so unsubstantial that the price seems like a big money grab and is not justified by value. #nofinancialadvise

@Bobo

trading cards is one of the most clear-cut examples of why blockchain tech brings value. the first question you can ask is what the advantages of digital trading cards are compared to physical ones. that should be somewhat straight-forward to answer: digital cards can't get damaged, they are much easier/quicker/safer to buy and (assuming there is a marketplace for them) to trade, and they are (under the same assumption) easier and more efficiently to value.

the second question is what the advantages of tokenising digital trading cards on a blockchain are compared to tokenisation from centralised entity. some examples:

- from the tech perspective having a centralised entity (a company for instance) tokenising the cards means there is a single point of failure: the company's servers. these servers can go down; servers and thus customer accounts can be hacked. that's not possible on a well-coded and sufficiently decentralised blockchain.
- tokenisation from a company can only be done by assigning serial numbers to the cards and saving (and publishing) those serial numbers on their servers. it's easy for others to copy these cards and their serial numbers and sell them to unknowing people. while this is still possible on a blockchain, it's easy to prove whether a card is an original and issued by the company and not by a third party. all transactions on a blockchain are publicly accessible and thus transparent. *this applies to most blockchains
- the company could decide to increase their supply of cards in the future by issuing more of the same cards with new serial numbers. while this is still possible on a blockchain, it's easy to see which token got minted when, and thus differentiate b/w the original token and new supply. it's also easy to figure out the total scarcity of any given card, people don't have to rely on the numbers that the company is publishing.
- the company could decide to abandon the marketplace and only let customers buy cards from them. that's not possible on a blockchain because NFT holders can trade directly (even when the company goes broke).
- the company could decide to manipulate the trading rules of their marketplace. on a blockchain, there are many different NFT marketplaces, making it more likely that such malpractice would come to light, leading to customers leaving the "bad" marketplace.
- the company could take large trading fees on their marketplace. many marketplaces on a blockchain lead to lower fees for customers.
- the company could go broke and customers could lose their account balance. can't happen on a blockchain.

reading my late night post in the morning, i want to clarify that the comparison i'm making here and in the bullet points is b/w a company tokenising digital trading cards on a blockchain and a company tokenising those cards in a centralised fashion. i think some of my wording could be confusing if this isn't clear.

agree. I think many people inside the blockchain space over estimate general awareness of what it is. The concept of a decentralized "thing" vs a centralized thing is hard to wrap your head around at first, I know it was from me. From there one can fully appreciate blockchain protocol, and from there appreciate crypto currency and from there NFTs.

For any interested in true Art segment of NFT space (not cartoons PFPs, pixelated monkeys) but actual art. The NFT Basel event that just concluded in Miami will give a great overview of what is happening now, who is involved, and where traditional art world is heading with NFTs. I hope they put the various sessions / speeches up so anyone can view. if you want tl/dr just click on speakers and scan down that list. All of these people got together to discuss one thing NFTs in Art. This is long and powerful list of people in both the Art and the NFT world.


https://nftbzl.com/

I don't even understand how physical art has value. Why pay a trillion dollars for the Mona Lisa when I can print out a life sized version and put it on my wall for next to nothing?

This thread got a lot better. Getting back to the point about how the TECH behind blockchain can potentially alter all industry, including casino gaming.

Agreed. Thanks for the info, everyone.

Dear lord the potential for blockchain in gaming is hard to quantify as its endless.

B&M casinos
Problem is that regulators and tech standards stifle innovation. If you open the hood on just about any tech on a casino floor you'll see hardware and software stacks that are 0-10 years old. Its just so hard to get something approved, that suppliers are dis-incentivized to innovating. New , startup suppliers are locked out due to barriers to entry due to regulatory/tech standards.

Gaming floors just starting to roll out cashless gaming. If it wasnt for covid , cashless would still be very low adoption. It will be years and years before state gaming commissions even publish a standard of crypto. maybe never'

Online
Blockchain should bring a surge of innovation in online space, regulated or not. Online gaming regulators are for sure moving forward to sort out issues around crypto.

Disclaimer: I am a crypto lover and I truly believe we are seeing something similar to the raise of Internet in terms of what's next. I am certainly biased but I am here mainly to educate, not to shill any projects. Hopefuly, my post will show it.

The way the NFT blew up is both the worst and the best way it could have. The big $$ attracted lot of interests and funds to it, enabling lot of innovations and exploratory projects but it the same time, it created super-polarized views.

Now, I think the accepted definition of an NFT is wrong for most people and people's understanding about NFT is a use case, rather the actual technology. Let me try to give a definition:

An NFT is proof of ownership, based on a technology that is public, decentralized, distributed and cannot be altered retroactively.

That's it, whether it's a PNG of a monkey, or a sword in a game, the fact that you have a proof of ownership on the blockchain is what really make them an NFT. That's the main point people miss, imo, and what makes it such a great innovation.

Now, why is it such a revolution? Well, you also have to consider the general context and what crypto -as a commnity/technology, not crypto as in cryptomoney/cryptoasset- is trying to achieve. The end-goal is to get rid of the middleman. Middlemen are biased, can be corrupted, controlling and also have their own agenda. Removing the middlemen, and giving back ownership to the individual: that's the premise of Web 3.0.

Web 1.0 was one-way system: I publish information online, you consult it. I send an email, you receive it, read it, and reply.
Web 2.0 was all about interaction. We like, react, share, watch live... Everthing happens through 3rd party platforms. They own and monetize your interactions, your data and your content - so you.
Web 3.0 is about giving back power to the user. How do I own my content? How do I prove this is mine? Non-Fungible Token.

What can I own then?

Well, you can own vitual assets (PNG, in-game assets, art in general, articles...). If you created something, capitalism enables you to monetize it. Why would youtube makes money on your videos? Why would Medium make money on the article you write? Why would you monetize a book but can't monetize a great post on a forum (such as this one)?
You can also own real work stuff. Why would a lawyer be the only one proving you own your house? Why do you need your governement to testify you own your car? Why would you pay an expert to tell you that this painting you bought is a "real" one? All this people are points of failures, frustration and money pits.

So, at the end of the day, yes, NFT as we know them are frustratingly limited, and unfortunately, people are mixing up the mean and the usage: PNG sold thousands of $$ are NFT but NFT are NOT limited to that.

Now, as for internet, there will be thousands of projects that will fail, either because they are just bad, with no fundamentals, or pure scams. As for the internet, there won't be a total shift where EVERYTHING happens online. Rather, I think we are moving to a new world where NFT will be used in many ways -including ways we don't forsee. I think we are scratching the surface. As for the internet, the biggest innovation will be to make it seamless and invisible: I am not interacting with a single protocol while sharing this post, yet, hundreds will be called in the process. That's why internet is so widely spread and crypto/nft aren't. At this stage, crypto and NFT are the playground of nerds and rich kids. Tomorrow, it will be used by masses.

As for the original question of the topic, yes I think NFT have a role to play in poker, I might come back later with my thought on it. Meanwhile, feel free to tip using the "tip this post with BTC" button just below. Ah no wait, it's web 2.0 still :P

GREAT POST. Especially this part.

*********************************************

Also finally found a project a bit closer to the hearts and minds of the degen poker world.

This one launched about 5 days ago and has already host $4,000,000 of coin flips. This has more to do with blockchain and crypto than NFT, but the NFTs people purchased for this project are what is being used to distribute profits from the project (and have already 60x in value).

The concept of trying to set this up IRL without blockchain and crpyto is unthinkable and could not be done in any time frame that would matter. These guys did it an a few days, launched a less than a week ago, already did $4,000,000 of SOL based flips and are probably growing at about 10-20% per day. This is one small example of the hyper growth happening in NFT space right now

Still lmao off that the below is a thing, yet here we are

last 3 hours in Coin Flip site on blockchain using NFTS for company funding, ownership and governance that launched 6 days ago.

No money in old school poker sites using FIAT. everyone solid



I think all were too quick to condemn Dnegs. More rake is better