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Old 02-04-2015, 12:46 PM   #1
jawong2000
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Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

The skill cap is obviously much much higher in cash games than in tournaments. So why are tournaments so much more celebrated? Especially when the poker community wants to emphasize the skill element of the game.

Sure, its hard to track live cash game results, but if you think about it, running a live MTT actually takes dozens, if not hundreds of staff, so live tournaments are also extremely difficult to track and run if it were not for all the effort we put into it and the numerous sites out there like Hendon. On another note, its not like they track losses in tournaments. Only gross winnings (and not net winnings) are accounted for. If cash games were today's tournaments, so too could we only track "winnings".

So lets say we turn the clock back 50 years or whatever and the guys behind the whole WSOP idea decided to make a tournament series based on cash games instead of the tournaments as we know today.

It would be something like, everybody sits down in a specific venue at a specific time for a specified number of hours over the course of 24 hours, span across 3 days or whatever (just like they do in tournaments)to play cash games and the guy who is up the most money at the very end wins a bracelet. Obviously alot more needs to be worked out but I'm just putting an idea out there. There would have been the "Cash Game Tournament" equivalent of blind levels, table draws etc. if the game was designed like that. It could still be televised, advertised, hyped etc. etc.

If that were the case, the poker landscape would be so much more different today, and you would also see the same names at the very top over and over again, much more than you do in the MTT scene today since the variance would be much lower (even though you still see the same names at the top to a certain extent). There would also one tenth the amount of random amateurs/unknowns who win titles, which is the case with any sport out there (not that poker is a sport).

The only appeal I can see to MTTs is potentially winning a huge score and only losing your buyin investment.

A little messy I know...thoughts all over the place but I think you can see where I'm going with this
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:59 PM   #2
PeteBlow
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

The first WSOP WAS a cash game, followed by a vote for the winner.

Can you imagine what the last few minutes of a cash game tournament would be like?
Shove fest. Less skill than a tournament.
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:17 PM   #3
jawong2000
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

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Originally Posted by PeteBlow View Post
The first WSOP WAS a cash game, followed by a vote for the winner.

Can you imagine what the last few minutes of a cash game tournament would be like?
Shove fest. Less skill than a tournament.
I mean the development of tournament poker as a whole over the years

But regarding your statement about being a shove fest, I dont think that would be true at all, obviously depends on how a "Cash game tournament" would be run exactly. No matter how you structure it I dont think it can be more of a shove fest than tournament poker is right now.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking, players have to buyin 100bb minimum (max buyin cap or no cap to be worked out as part of the structure), but have to deposit 500bb with the casino. The player will have to play atleast 500bb over the tournament length before "quitting", but just like any cash game, he can reload unlimitedly. I dont see how this would become a shove fest at all really. The blind levels dont have to escalate at all, there could be antes in play and it would be nothing but super deep stack play.

Imagine theres a field of 1000 players, over the course of 24 hours in 3 days, 8 hours per session, you can imainge some players stuck thier whole 500bb and have decided not to keep rebuying, while others have. There will be "tournament chip leaders" who may have upwards of 1000bb but because eveyrone is so deep bb wise, it would be nothing but post flop poker.
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:19 PM   #4
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

That format seems like it would be a tough sell to the casual poker fan to be engaged. There's less all ins, less people busting, and youre not playing down to a "true" champ who busts everyone else and accumulates all the chips. It seems less interesting to play (might as well just play a regular cash game) and certainly less interesting to watch. It would be an interesting format to showcase cash game skill, but live play over a few days is going to be more about variance then anything else, no matter the format.

Also, there would be no big amateur winners like you said. Meaning no 'Moneymaker Effect', and likely very little effectiveness in bringing new players to the game which means poker would never really go mainstream.
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:22 PM   #5
MikeyBu
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Tourneys are more quantifiable, it's easier to say someone is a wsop bracelet winner than say someone is a 2evbb/100 at 25/50. Despite the latter being more impressive
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:32 PM   #6
MonsterJMcgee
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

because they're more marketable
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:41 PM   #7
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

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Originally Posted by jawong2000 View Post
The skill cap is obviously much much higher in cash games than in tournaments.


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Old 02-04-2015, 01:42 PM   #8
jawong2000
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

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Originally Posted by MikeyBu View Post
Tourneys are more quantifiable, it's easier to say someone is a wsop bracelet winner than say someone is a 2evbb/100 at 25/50. Despite the latter being more impressive
He's not gonna claim to be someone winning 2bb/100, but instead he would be the champion/bracelet winner of the $5000 (which would imply blinds are 5/10 with/without ante if 500bb minimum play required) 6-Max NLHE tournament and walked away with $80,000.

And I'm not saying the blinds couldn't increase neither. So imagine if the players are required to deposit 500bb and the average sit down buyin is 150bb. After the first day, there'll be alot of big stacks and a good % of the field will have "quit" after losing thier 500bb and not wanting to keep rebuying.

Say also late registration ends at the end of day 1 of a 4 day event but you can rebuy unlimited till the end of day 2, and just incase you dont have enough incentive to keep rebuying, the blinds on day 2 will be 10/20 with a 2 ante since theres gonna be so much money in play anyway. And then on day 3 you can cap the blinds at 15/30/5 and play till the end of day 4 to ensure a good healthy amount of action
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Old 02-04-2015, 02:18 PM   #9
namisgr11
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

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Originally Posted by MikeyBu View Post
Tourneys are more quantifiable,
This. Live tournament results are made public, live cash game results are not.
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Old 02-04-2015, 02:48 PM   #10
JPantz
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

There are many reasons why. Also good luck trying to convince everything that your tournament cash game idea is anything anyone should care about.
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Old 02-04-2015, 02:51 PM   #11
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

It's easy to declare an outright winner when a single person ends up with every single chip in a tournament.
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Old 02-04-2015, 03:14 PM   #12
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Theres a few reasons Im not a fan of your ideas but it has potential. I think there should be more experimentation with various formats in the future I just dont think they will catch on and be super popular but who knows. "The cage" on wpn has a kind of similar idea to this.
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Old 02-04-2015, 03:21 PM   #13
powrhau5
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

The WSOP tournament is so popular because anyone in the world can sit down, make millions, and become the world champ.
In cash games this just isn't true without tons of grinding and hard work.(Not as fun to watch)

Although I do think the televised cash games are much more interesting to watch, the wsop ME will and should never go.
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Old 02-04-2015, 03:54 PM   #14
CrazyLond
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

It's the great poker tradeoff. The best players play cash games without getting recognized by the general public as great while a few randoms get lucky in tournaments and get all the fame and recognition.

In return, the tournaments get publicity for poker in general, ultimately driving some of the randoms into the cash games where the best players make their money.

There are a few times where a very good player has won enough big tournaments to generate recognition but for most great players, it is not worth their time to sit through many tournaments because they will make a lot more in the long run playing cash.
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:16 PM   #15
I'mAFrenchDonkey
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Because CG = bumhunting and colluding.
It's harder to do that in big fields MTTs (not talking about 4 tables SHR with 6 germans in the field)
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:21 PM   #16
ShowMeUrAce
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Because donks are convinced that a WSOP bracelet means you're "world champion" like at Olympic games or stuff, therefore you're better at poker than almost everyone else in the world, absolutely neglecting the luck factor.
Well, after all, I guess Jamie Gold wasn't so bad at poker... was he ?
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:31 PM   #17
SwoopAE
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Casual players like tournaments because they're more fun, and there is more luck involved in the short term increasing their chances of winning. Everyone, including cash game players wants more casual players in poker.

Also cash games are 'boring' and are about grinding out 4bb/100 or whatever whereas you can win a thousand buyins in a day playing tournaments.
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:45 PM   #18
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

That sounds like the worst idea ever and thats probably why it didnt work in the 1970 wsop. Poker tournament's arent very marketable anymore because we dont have any people to root for these days. Even when the EPT try to promote the online qualify-fire as someone playing in their first live tournament we all know this hoody wearing german kid probably already has $500k in online winning. There is no everyman like in 2003-2006.
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Old 02-04-2015, 06:00 PM   #19
King of the North
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Media coverage.
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Old 02-04-2015, 06:20 PM   #20
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Because they are on TV.

/thread
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Old 02-04-2015, 06:34 PM   #21
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterJMcgee View Post
because they're more marketable
This

and it can televised alot better
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:31 PM   #22
AbAdTrip
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jawong2000 View Post
There would also one tenth the amount of random amateurs/unknowns who win titles, which is the case with any sport out there (not that poker is a sport).

The only appeal I can see to MTTs is potentially winning a huge score and only losing your buyin investment.

A little messy I know...thoughts all over the place but I think you can see where I'm going with this
Since when is it bad to have amateurs win....heaven forbid we make more people like poker
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:49 PM   #23
Tutejszy
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

can't believe nobody said that yet, but...

tournaments are a real sport, a cometishian
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Old 02-04-2015, 08:00 PM   #24
2OutsNoProb
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

The recreational, casual player - who makes up the vast majority of the player base - learned poker through watching tournament play.

They're also a lot easier to celebrate because people finish 1st in them, which they don't in cash games.
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:17 PM   #25
SuperDuperTilt
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Re: Why are tournaments so much more celebrated than cash games?

This is a really dumb post. Yeah, cash games are a lot more about skill over and infinite time length. Tournaments are finite, and your sure as hell making a EV decision to play in one. The time pressure increases and rewards a lot of high variance play, making it more exciting. So you do need luck, as well as your skill to win.
ie.. you won 3 buy ins today, good session... no one cares
you took down the one drop... the world starts watching you
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