I was thinking about this topic a few days ago. Lots of reg posters on this forum hose the poker celebs all the time and constantly brag about the online players being far superior to the live pros that have for the most part been glorified on TV. I think there's some serious jealousy among many of the top online regs that post here because they feel like they are superior at the game but do not get the recognition.

Danial Negreneau, no offense, would never have emerged has a highly succesful player if he had to start out like most of the online pros did and emerge in todays poker environment. He would be a slight winner at best in the highest stakes online games and that's being pretty generous. The online pros are incredibly better at the game than the glorified live pros, but those TV players are the ones that keep the game exciting and keep the seats filled with fish. So we should all be thankful to them for that (and they did grind it out when poker wasn't so "hot").

Basically, there's just not much marketability for a bunch of young, nerdy internet dudes. It doesn't have that "look you in eye and read your soul" intensity that many recreational players love about the game. They have this perception that these TV players can just read through you, and it's exciting to them. I say "nerdy" internet guys b/c that's the perception. A good-looking online player like Antonius is obv more marketable (the dream life of PA to a recreational player is exciting) and I think that if internet guys can start to portray themselves in that kind of light (successful, savy, charismatic...no, I'm not gay, but you get the point), then there's a chance for them to succeed. The perception of the internet guys in that Cigar aficiado article was good. They looked classy, stylish, etc.

DN hits it right on the nail

Sorry a few hours of TV time at 2am in the morning (PAD) isnt enough.

You gotta make multiple ESPN shows, and have an attitude that interests ppl. Also you need to try to boost your own stock (interviews, podcasts, etc...) and act silly/stupid.

WPT, HSP, and PAD are way way less important than stuff shown on ESPN imo (in terms of creating stars).

Their big deal could come from an alternate site trying to steal the big money games away from FT...anyone interested in some 200-400 at Absolute or Ultimate Bet?

:-p

BINGO.

When poker was "hot" in the U.S. market in 2004, the young players with personality and/or looks who got "hot" at that time, namely Daniel Negreanu, Erick Lindgren, Antonio Esfandari (and to a lesser extent Phil Laak, who waited too long to sign a product endorsement deal and missed his window of opportunity) filled a vaccum. By the time the UIGEA was enacted into law in October 2006, the U.S. market was already mature and oversaturated with poker personalities.

JC Tran, who got hot in the 1st quarter of 2007 after the Neteller arrests, was one of the several dozen U.S.-based players who missed the window of opportunity to be considered for a "Tier 1" product endorsement deal (i.e. mid six figures minimum, with TV spokesperson responsibilities).

The same phenomenon was repeated in Germany in 2006-2007, when PokerStars.net hand-picked Katja Thater to be its primary German media spokesperson and signed Sebastian Ruthenberg as a secondary product endorser after he finished 3rd at EPT Dortmund; FullTiltPoker.net signed the only 2-time German bracelet winner in Eddy Scharf to anchor its German-speaking stable of FullTiltPoker.net pros; 888.com handpicked Michael "Doc" Keiner as its on-air TV poker personality; and Gnuf signed Andreas Krause (a former client of mine) after he had 6 WSOP cashes and 1 WSOP TV final table in 2007. Other German players, such as 2 of my former clients Thomas Bihl (who won 1st ever WSOP Europe bracelet) and Hans Martin Vogl (5th place at 2007 Aussie Millions), had to move quickly to sign their deals before the German market became saturated with poker personalities (FullTiltPoker.net signed over a dozen German-speaking players between August and December 2007). German players who made TV final tables during the 2007-2008 season, such as Florian Langmann (2nd place EPT Season 4 London) and Nico Behling (8th place at 2008 Aussie Millions, missed their window of opportunity.

During the 2008 WSOP, the same phenomenon was being repeated in the Russia market, where PokerStars.net signed Alex Kravchenko and Kirill Gerasimov to big deals (they were represented by Tony G. PokerStars.net didn't move fast enough after the 2007 WSOP so I lost Alex Kravchenko as a client. Bad timing for me). The three Russian-speaking players who got hot during the 2008 WSOP, Vitaly Lunkin, Nikolay Evdakov, and Svetlana Gromenkova, signed quickly with FullTiltPoker.net before the Russian market became saturated. Ivan Demidov signed with PokerStars.net as part of the "November Nine". 2008 Aussie Millions champion Alexander Kostrisyn (who is part of the Tony G syndidate and is represented by Tony G) is the biggest Russian "name" who is currently unsigned.

I have already written about Brazil market, where Andre Akkari (2007) and Alexandre Gomes (2008) signed with PokerStars.net, and ESPN Brasil poker TV analysts Christian Kruel and Raul Oliveira signed with FullTiltPoker.net within the past 30 days. Again, prominent players in Brazil have to move quickly once the window of opportunity opens, because that window will close quickly. I am currently working actively with a Brazilian player (who had WSOP final table experience) to try to get a deal for him.

I currently have 3 Mexican poker personalities who are my active clients. Many of you already know about veteran Spanish-language WSOP TV announcer Gabriela Hill who signed with FullTiltPoker.net a month ago (she toiled for 4 years as a virtual unknown in the poker world, and 23 years overall as a TV personality, before her window of opportunity to pursue a poker-related product endorsement deal arrived). My other two Mexican clients are currently evaluating offers.

The takeaway lesson for players: once the window of opportunity opens for a player in a particular market to pursue a product endorsement deal, that player has to move quickly and decisively. Otherwise, he or she may be shut out of a deal.

Oliver Tse
Oliver Tse Management Group
Representing the ambassadors of poker

^^ sick post

never thought about it like that before

everything oliver said is so incredibly on the mark and obvious

That's the best olivert post ever. Print that sucker and frame it, ot

Without directly quoting certain people, l want to tackle three responses:

1. What I would have been capable of had I came into the poker world during the internet age, would again, have little to do with my skill level. As long as I was competent at poker, I don't believe that the changing landscape would have prohibited me from opportunity. There isn't one single case of a young internet player who combines charisma, media savvy, and talent, that hasn't had the opportunity to make an income from poker outside of playing. That person, or group of people has to arise, but I've seen very few candidates in the last few years. Who y'all got that fits that bill?

2. Increasing your opportunity to be a visible "tv player" constitutes creating either a fan base through success, or the fact that media/viewers are interested in you for whatever reason. It's not something I think you can really fake either. You are either interesting, or you are boring- skill has little to do with it. Scotty Nguyen, while most of the younger kids could probably crush him, they pale in comparison to his appeal to the media and viewers who want to see something different: personality... drunk or sober, Scotty has more personality than a handful of great internet pros combined.

3. The definition of a big splash has, again, less to do with success than it does with whether or not your performances where memorable. Dwan, Galfond, Townsend, etc. have all been on television, but outside of Dwan's Hellmuth challenge, none of those performances constitute a "big splash." Galfond was on HSP, but he didn't "electrify" random people. Poker fans, specifically internet poker fans loved seeing him on there, but random grandma could care less for the most part. Townsend, as intense of a poker mind as he obviously has, showed the warmth of a snow pea in his televised opportunities.


When poker became popular on television the definition of a "professional poker player" also changed drastically. No longer did it matter what "those in the know" felt about a players skill level, what became more important, and often more lucrative was whether or not the player in question was the type of person people would want to watch. Either to watch them lose (villians) or to root them into victory.

I don't buy for a second that great young internet players get a bad rap in terms of exposure, in fact, the opposite is true. When I was a 22 year old grinder in the $20-$40 limit hold'em games my opportunities to make residual income were nil. There was no "$20-$40 fan club" and the only way to make a splash was to hit big in tournaments or rise to the level of the biggest cash games in the world. These days, internet stars, before having proved anything at all on the "grand stage" often already have name recognition and a following that simply wasn't a reality 10 years ago.

What they actually do with that opportunity is what separates them from the "tv players" that seem to get called back again and again for network shows.

Be honest, if you were selling a show to NBC and said you have two shows to sell, either: A) the 6 best internet players rated by pocketfives, or B) Scotty Nguyen, Sammy Farha, Phil Hellmuth, Jennifer Harman, Phil Laak, and Shawn Shiekhan... would it be remotely close who you chose in terms of ratings?

I agree with everything you said, but seriously, you must be new here....

Daniel is right on.

Sorry if this repeats what some others have already posted, but a major difference between Durr, Phil, BT and the tournament players are that the incremental extra income from endorsements may not be worh all of the bs, hassle, etc of being a recognized poker player.

They have all made, at one time, over 7 figures playing cash games and don't seem to have a big interest in having their tournament entries paid for by a sponsor. Even the Bellagio $25,000 enty is less than a buy-in for their plo game.

I think even Danny would tell you in private that if he had already accumulated a 7-8 figure bankroll playing cash games, that his "free" time is way more valuable than any amount he earns from endorsements. I've been around mega famous people before in private situations and I can tell you that if it's between money, fame, or money and fame...they would all chose just the money. When you have a lot of money, your free time is worth a lot. What's the point of having all of that money if you can't use it to live the life that appeals to you?

I think that may be true for many/most players but I really think Daniel is a bad example. It seems pretty obvious he enjoys and thrives on his fame. I am sure at times it gets old but for the most part being famous fills a need for him.

I 100% agree with Daniel. As I said in my earlier post, the poker celebs aren't great at poker, but they are great for poker promotion. The poker community should be thankful for that instead of bitching about them getting underserved great deals. The average clueless, semi-wealthy fish isn't going to be enticed into playing poker by watching some young internet kid on TV talk about cardrunners concepts on ESPN. They want to see crazy antics, ridiculous prop bets, an extravagant lifestyle, or intense soulreads ("perceived" soulreads..w/e). So, am I jealous of these TV celebs? A little bit. But I'm very thankful for them as well. I hope it keeps up and that poker stays as popular as it is.

A lot of the old-timers and some of the younger live pros had to create a poker market. Good games were rare and they had to work hard to generate those games. I remember hearing about how Doyle and Chip would joke around in the Big Game with the rich fish about their Montana cabins and the like all so that the fish had a good time and would stay in the game. The young internet kids have no clue about poker marketing b/c we've been so lucky to have a non-stop stream of juicy games at our fingertips. We take it for granted. And in a way it has cost us some valuable lessons. ADZ ripping about fish 3 seconds after they get up. A game ending RIGHT as the fish leaves. HU people taking a fish for almost everything and then just sitting out. The live pros knew better than do to do this kind of shiznit because they knew what was good for the game in general, not just for that one session. Online players that act like that aren't exactly going to make the best icons of poker to attract the masses.

The endorsement deals were a need for poker embassators by poker rooms in every niche market (country).

It is true that the majority of markets are mature and oversaturated with poker personalities.

But for hardcore poker players, the fact that some players get endorsement deals because they win a donkament, or made a final table, or try to be funny when the cameras are on or because of their looks it is a bit lame.

I personally don't respect their game, and they are not the best poker players in the world, and i simply don't care about them.

I know that some are smart and winning players, and i respect what they are doing trying to make poker more popular.

But the game will evolve and in mature markets poker fans will want to know about the best poker players in the world not the most lucky or the best clowns.

I am not saying that there is no space for everybody, and i know that some internet players ain't very interesting for TV, or don't have the social skills to play in live poker tables, and some are freaks and very weird dudes, but some have charisma in their weird way.

I know that the average people that watch TV is looking for the thrill, for the gamble, they prefer to watch random acts of ******eness, from players that talk and drink too much, than good poker.

Maybe thats why poker share in tv is getting smaller, producers made the wrong choices, they didn't searched for quality, giving a short term exposure to the game and people got tired fast.

Pocket fives rankings are for tourney players, and a supose you are talking about a cash game in here.

I am sure that show B) will be more entertaining for the random people but, for me a line up where Phil Helmuth probably is the best player in it is a weak one, and i wont waist my time watching it.

I think saying it cant be done is dumb.
Its like becoming a top tier HSNL pro.

Many poker players just dont try to market themselves.
1st you would prolly need to move to vegas.

You have to network yourself w/ every big name person you can find. And try to break into the social scene. You also need to make yourself more likable. Changing your personality is very difficult IMO.

You need to make yourself an asset by making ppl care who you are. Starting your own website, signing some small deals that give you exposure, etc... Slowly work your brand name up. Now, while doing all of this, you need to to the easy part:

making TV air time. How you handle yourself is very important. Good players might be too focused on winning while on TV, but one should make an effort to be memorable for the correct reasons (IE: not being some douche who becomes infamous).

I think point 1 is the hardest to do: many online guys just arnt in the correct social networks and dont have good connections.

Lastly I think one should pay attention to Phil Hellmuth, and try to learn from him. Infact next time you see him, instead of being polite, or ignoring him, maybe ask him "what are some tips to developing my brand name, or getting signed, etc..." Usually succesfull ppl (like him) are more than happy to give out a few tips.

Overall, I think it can be done, just like you can be a HSNL pro.
The pathe is very hard, and it requires alot of skill, hardwork, and some luck.

Ahh, so that's where Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain and Oscar Wilde got their inspiration from.

Not everyone wants to become famous and/or needs residual income. You seem to think this is a certainty for some reason. I can't think of one great cash internet player that has actively sought the spotlight - save possibly tom dwan. Speaking as a internet millionaire or whatever, I wouldn't trade my life for any of the "famous" pros simply because I don't love the spotlight. And certainly being portrayed as a "jerk" like sheik or hellmuth for residual income is about the least appealing thing in the world.


Overall, I agree that their personalities are not exactly right for tv - and they aren't even close to media savvy, but it's not rocket science to become a "famous" and marketable. Any outlandish action or outburst will do just fine. Re: Hevad Khan.

And let's not talk like the stars are charismatic personalities. Most won a tournament when everyone who won became a star. It's not like David Williams or Josh Arieh have dynamic tv personalities. And young, white internet kid isn't exactly interesting these days when the poker world already has enough stars.


Lastly, I think you are being a little self indulgent equating tv personalities and real life personalities. Real life charisma and what tv wants are two very different things.

great post DN, love the insight you give.

I get your point and agree that seeing some tv pros make better tv than seeing internet players, and it's more enjoyable for the avg. player to see you on tv than Galfond.

However having said that, you overrate the "charisma" of live pros, most of the poker celebs have 0 charisma and are just media whores. Take Hellmuth for example, I think he has 0 charisma, his interviews, raps, and random skits are all incredibly awkward, he's not funny and most of the time he sits at the table like a constipated ostrich with sunglasses, but he IS a media whore and will do anything when the cameras are around. If you want to call that charisma it's fine, but I think that's using the definition of the word loosely.

Plus alot of the tv players add little or nothing to the table but yet get invited time and again. Allen Cunningham, Jen Harman, Ted Forrest, Todd Brunson, Howard Lederer and to a certain extent even Ivey add little in terms of "charisma" factor to the table but yet get invited time and again. It has alot more to do with having gained celebrity status pre poker boom and being a media whore.

Two things:

Never do I say anything at all that should imply that a player should want to be famous and strive for that. The OP asked a question as to why these players weren't signed and I gave my opinion, never claimed they should do this, or that. Nowhere do I say that young internet players SHOULD do anything... I will say, that if they DO want to make residual income, that requires more than just being a good player.

Secondly, I don't presume to think that the tv players that you see today all have charisma. I am saying that for a new player to crack the scene, charisma would trump skill level.

I do agree with you guys when you say that many of the "tv players" are lucky to have been able to get to where they are because of timing. That's undeniable. It still boggles my mind when I see some of the choices for certain programs as I don't see the interest?
I do think younger internet players ARE getting opportunities to be on television, though, more so than at any time before. The NBC heads up has notoriously passed on guys who are more accomplished in tournament poker in favor of an internet hotshot. A guy like Freddy Bonyadi, for example, has won 3 WSOP Bracelets, several WPT final tables and has been a respected cash player for years. He's not in that "in crowd" I guess, so he doesn't have much pull.

I have probably been THE most vocal player in terms of airing shows with the best actual players rather than guys who scream louder than others. When the PPL was to be formed, I spoke out against the idea that players should be invited based heavily on their personality instead of skill. I do believe that skill should be the number one key by a long shot, and then in close calls, go with the guy who is more interesting for whatever reason.

So while I totally agree with the sentiment that there is a "club" of tv players that corner the market on tv time, I don't think it's the internet players that are getting the worst of it. The Bonyadi's of the world, they get shafted in terms of opportunity.

Good post. I'm curious as to why you think the best players should get the nod over less more entertaining players. It would seem to me that they should strive to put the best players in the game, but not at the cost of ratings- especially since the public can't tell anyway.


Certainly we'd all be better served if every internet kid didn't feel the need to talk about ranges, odds, and metagame in every interview. Nobody cares - and you are flushing your marketability down the toilet.

I think a better reason that there are no new poker celebrities, is because TV poker is on a serious decline. The WPT is on life support, and no-one is really AS Interested in TV POker anymore.

As charasmatic as you are Daniel, timing is everything.

If these internet stars were making their mark 4-5 years ago, they might be as interesting as you think you are.

Edit: Also the best internet players are far more financially successful then the better live players. They might not care as much about entertaining people...

Man, I was really going to try and make a 2nd WPT final table so I could possibly get some sort of endorsement.

DN, how does it feel to be a DREAM MURDERER?

have you actually watched poker on tv? internet kids are tame compared to some of the live pros that act out constantly.

It's unreal how far off Pure_Talent is in what he is saying. Idk were he has this assumption that internet kids act really douchey or w/e. I would say between 80-90% of the childish behaviour comes from live pro's, I mean if your a regular NVG reader you will have noticed the amount of threads we have that includes a live pro berating/talking smack to a internet player.

To say that internet players are douchey is LOL.