Ok, it wasn't bigger than Postle, but...

I don't remember him suffering any consequences from it. He is invited to livestreams and is playing a challenge against Galfond.

How come a dude can blatantly cheat a bunch of people, get caught and go on like nothing happened?
He deserved multy-year ban from playing poker anywhere, but I get that could be difficult to enforce. But inviting him on stream and challenges? Come the **** on....

Anyone asked Galfond about his? I hope he is forced to speak and say cheating a home game is no biggie.

Are we really gonna forget about this?

I don’t know anything about it but if I did I would certainly have forgotten about it

But maybe I did know but forgot

1. Because he stole from businessmen and not fellow poker pros, so no one gives a ****
2. Because 90% + of poker pros playing those stakes cheat in one way or another

In

I think Jungleman should be auto-forgiven for anything. He is a cool genius who is probably going to be the GOAT. Great podcast too. The best.

https://www.youtube.com/c/WinningTheGameofLife

No one comes close in skill and in podcasts.

^^^^^^^^
100% This

I know it’s old fashioned but cheating/stealing is wrong no matter the victim, imo.

Yea those were definitely not my opinions just facts

A lot of people don't even consider ghosting cheating. Especially people who have been around online poker a little bit longer during a time when it was pretty common and not against sites ToS.

LMAO at this take.

It was a private game with rich whales who were friends/acquaintances of each other. If you are supposed to be playing Perkins and you are playing Jungleman you got cheated out of tons. No way around it, clear cheating....
No one is thinking no cheat....
Jungleman can't possibly be that much worse than a GTO bot in a whale lineup, but can be much, much better depending on how bad they are.


But even then.... the logic doesn't hold up. Slavery? Oh c'mon, back then it was normal and not agains the law.... give me a break....

Cause I think jungleman is cool. No I will not explain or justify this.

You asked for a reason, I provided you with one. Believe it or not, this is not the first time somebody mentions this "scandal" or ghosting in general. Pre Black Friday, almost every coach ghosted their students. Training sites were full of ghosting videos. Even "Go wake up Emil", maybe the first time a poker video went viral more than 15 years ago, is technically ghosting.

It's your prerogative to decide what you care about. It's mine to decide what I don't care about.

It's just exhausting caring about a new cheating/scumbag story every week

In my opinion, it was primarily the guy that hired Jungleman that is cheating. Jungleman just did what many other pros would have done as well (and have done many times in the past) and took the money by outplaying the opponents, not by having access to their holecards or something.

People still feel bad for Jungleman over the Dwan challenge

I agree with your side but he's a right that a lot of people don't.

I remember a million years ago pre Black Friday it was common on some sites for people to make new accounts bc they signed up for their account without getting rakeback.

Back then there were threads on here for regs on different sites,and in the threads for the smaller sites you had a lot of back and forth.

Anyway there was someone I played heads up plo with a lot who I thought sucked (in reality we both sucked,he just sucked more.)
One day he makes a new account with a new screen name. Plays me a couple of times.
I then find out in this thread that he was the same guy on a different name.

I think it was a complete scumbag move not to tell me,and probably half the thread agreed with me half thought it was fine. Granted this isn't exactly the same as ghosting but it's just a different variation of it.

Why does op care about this is the real question? Is he playing in the same games and is annoyed that Cates is there also?

Probably not

There was another poster fired up because Chino Rheem was on High Stakes Poker

It’s a samurai defend poker type of thing. I get it, sort of.

But you can’t cry to have poker rooms, tournament series, and tv shows black ball players because some people think they are a cheater/scammer. In this case they are probably right but not in every case but in general people don’t care and shouldn’t really be forced to care.

If you were cheated, take care of it yourself

jungle is the man!

ty for doing the challenge to both Phil and Jungle, it's been fun to watch

Very long post if you have time to read it.

Otherwise, cliff notes:

* Ultimately you can only look after yourself in poker, and this applies to both sides of it. Not being cheated, and not yourself being a cheat.
* Even the most ethical of poker companies and players are only 95% ethical. Examples, Pokerstars and Allen "Chainsaw" Kessler.
* The poker industry will never have a global governing body that enforces sanctions and punishments against unethical players or operators (companies)
because to do so would be to tear apart and destroy the very industry that it is overseeing.

Long version:

I agree with the central thrust of your post, which is that ultimately you can only look after yourself in poker, and this applies to both sides of it. Not being cheated, and not yourself being a cheat.

Be careful where you play and who you are playing against, to avoid being cheated against. And if you are an ethical person, don't either actively go over to the dark side
by doing things that are clearly unethical or outright cheating, or be tempted to go over to the dark side by its financial rewards, or because you are a pro that can't make money behaving ethically.

The problem is that to be an ethical pro there have to be enough above board available games for you to play in where you have an edge in them and can play enough volume too, and for many pros there simply aren't enough so they go over to the dark side.

Most things in the poker industry if you really break it down, and I am talking about relating to both players and operators, are either unethical or a hustle, or a minor hustle.
Two quick examples to demonstrate this point, using the very, very lowest level "offenders".

The respected regulated online sites, e.g. Pokerstars, Unibet and others encourage new players to open a poker playing account, with freerolls and other promotions, then when the player opens the account and lands on the site, they are met with a myriad of other gaming products, most of which are very -EV and potentially addictive. Yes players can opt out of casino etc, but surely the ethical way would be to have to opt in, or even more ethical to make the poker site and the gaming and betting site two completely separate entities. Anyone who is a sponsored pro or ambassador for any of the regulated sites that are doing this, is in a small way also culpable and only one sponsored pro in the history of online poker, that I am aware of, has spoken out about this, which was Victoria Coren.

But I emphasise that the above paragraph is the absolute very lowest level of "offence" any company or person is committing in the poker industry.

The second example is Allen "Chainsaw" Kessler, who on the surface of it is a model citizen poker player. No scandals, no cheating, 100% ethical and one of the most trusted people in poker, probably in the top 10 names of most trusted, if not top 5.

However, even he for years and years has been minor hustling others IMO, because he doesn't, or won't, reveal his historic ROI to potential investors (I am pretty sure of this, please correct me if I am wrong). Even if he does, for long periods of time he has been selling tournament action at ~1.10 to ~1.15. I am pretty certain that this range is either equal to or slightly above his actual ROI.

So, best case scenario, as an investor, all you are doing is buying "results futures" from him at fair value. So there is a very low level of hustle going on by Allen. He has a very large sample size of live tournaments results, so if he wanted to be 100% ethical he would release his results to enable potential investors to make a properly informed decision. Instead he is being maybe only 90% ethical about the way he sells tournament action. He is 100% ethical, as far as a I am aware in all other aspects of poker, so if we had to score him on the ethical scale, overall he is likely 95%.

So Pokerstars and he are both probably 95% ethical and they are the very highest ranked on the ethical scale, but it is all downhill from there, and a lot of less respected poker operators, some regulated, some unregulated, are probably around the 80% mark, poker apps are at about 65%, and a huge chunk of players are in the 65% to 80% range themselves, certainly of winning players. Losing players are typically the ones that take the brunt of the unethical actions of others.

So what we have is an industry that is built on and almost entirely depends on one form or another of unethical behaviour or business practices, which is why it will never have a global governing body that clamps down on everything, because if that body did its job sincerely and honestly, it would destroy the very industry that it is governing and regulating.

It’s because it would be unfair if people remembered this jungleman scandal but not his involvement in the José “Girah” Macedo scandal.

Or because he has inside info on other pros' nefarious behavior which protects him.

Because a lot of people were doing it not just him he’s the only one of the very few who it was publicized about. It’s more on the guy who gives access to him to play on their account then the actual player as well.

If you ever played on these apps in a lot of clubs you would quickly realize how much people lie about who is who on there and have other people play on their accounts etc.

His situation was kinda complex if I remember right though they have like video confirmation of players that they were fraudulently portraying or something though.

To be honest there’s an incredibly negative association with these type of clubs in the poker society as well. They are predatory in how they recruit and exclude players and most people feel like they deserve worse than this tbh.

Jungles been involved in a lot more shady **** that he got a pass from somehow too. Not just girah thing didn’t he vouch for a guy the slipped Trojans into Doug’s computer or something too?

I might be wrong ( and I don't care enough to check), but didn't he acknowledge this and apologize for it?

If so, I can see where a lot of people would give him a break because although it isn't a great excuse, if everyone was doing it, it isore understandable why he would do it without thinking about it. Once it is pointed out to him, if he changed his behavior (which he apparently has) then I believe in forgiveness so I move on.

TDLR, when someone is otherwise an honest stand up person, if they make a mistake and are willing to apologize and not repeat the mistake again, most are willing to forgive.

Once a cheat, always a cheat, or at the bare minimum, the propensity to cheat again, if he or anybody else for that matter, weighs up the risk v reward of cheating being in their favour.

Most of the time in poker, it is massively in their favour, because for many forms of cheating there are no punishments at all, or the punishments are smaller than the profits already made, and that's if the cheating is even detected in the first place.

The exception to all of the above might be if someone is of amazingly good character and cheats once and there are extenuating circumstances, Even then, in poker specifically, I would lean towards them knowing exactly what they were doing if they are a top experienced pro. If they are a beginner or non-professional, then it is more likely that a one-off "offence" was an honest mistake or a misunderstanding of the rules/terms and conditions.