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When did poker players get so passive? When did poker players get so passive?

07-18-2018 , 09:32 PM
Sometimes it’s helpful to read beyond the thread title, though admittedly that takes longer than three seconds.

I like when somebody watches players winning millions of dollars with a style in some hands different from their home game, and they wonder why the high-rollers are playing wrong.
When did poker players get so passive? Quote
07-18-2018 , 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Mxyztplk
Isn’t GTO basically a defensive strategy controlling loses until a good spot comes around.
No, GTO is not an inherently defensive (or offensive) strategy. GTO is a strategy against which your opponent can do no better by changing strategies, ergo, your opponent is indifferent to whichever action he could take. This is what we call a nash equilibrium.

If that requires one to be defensive, then sure. If it requires one to be offensive, then sure.
When did poker players get so passive? Quote
07-18-2018 , 11:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage01
I agree. Most of these so called 'top players' are just mediocre regs at best, with no balls who just xc their life away. Stop trying to excuse it as playing advanced or 'gto' its just no balls. Guys like Martin Jacobson, who is supposed to be some Boss, yet when push came to shove he got totally owned by Polks bluff in the One drop a few years ago, when he folded a monster to the only guy at the table capable of pulling a big move like that. Not impressive at all. I barely saw anyone actually trying to play poker.
Why don’t you play those events if the players are ‘mediocre’ regs at best?

If they get staked for $1mil events, a good reg should even be able to charge a huge mark-up!
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07-19-2018 , 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 28renton
No, GTO is not an inherently defensive (or offensive) strategy. GTO is a strategy against which your opponent can do no better by changing strategies, ergo, your opponent is indifferent to whichever action he could take. This is what we call a nash equilibrium.

If that requires one to be defensive, then sure. If it requires one to be offensive, then sure.
Can you give an example of an opponent being indifferent to our action? He has to respond to our action, so how is he indifferent? Also, any links to articles that could help me learn more is also appreciated!
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07-19-2018 , 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvis
Just responding to the person who created this thread. Else I would have quoted you.
.
Apologies my man!
When did poker players get so passive? Quote
07-19-2018 , 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2ryan
yeah billionaire Einhorns hedge fund is in the tank... sure

also he actually played very well against some of the toughest competition possible. he got 3rd in the oringinal one drop and 18th in the largest wsop main event field ever.

fedor had raised like 80% of dan smiths limps. i liked his plan to limp shove. fedor was raising with absolute garbage hands therefore fedor likely raises 75% of the time.

#3 is just laughable. you gotta have some flush draws in your calling range so you can have a flush when it hits

however i do agree with the ending part about how no one check raise bluffs anymore. they basically only have two pair+ nowadays.
problem is you never need to balance since youll never be in these situations likely ever again. so i feel like the players just wanted to play standard and wait for monsters
Not to be results oriented, but Einhorn's fund is negative or maybe even for the past 4 years(looking at chart below)...not exactly a bear market either!

And has managed to underperform the S&P 500 by a mere 5000 basis points or so since 2012.

Dreadful...no. But certainly no better than virtually anyone investing in the US Stock Market. Linky: https://www.tipranks.com/hedge-funds/david-einhorn

As for Dan Smith, the limp shove idea is fine, though with AJ you're only going to be a 65/35 favorite against two random cards. The problem I have is giving up half his stack after his strategy backfires, is up against a really tough player and is short stacked. It's the kind of play I see the worst home players make time and time again. How on earth is it good just because a world class player does it? They can't make mistakes and play poorly?
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07-19-2018 , 01:14 AM
AQ is a push plain and simple. Same part of his brain that bet against Amazon min raised. He’s a genius and an awesome guy though
When did poker players get so passive? Quote
07-19-2018 , 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippyroo
Can you give an example of an opponent being indifferent to our action? He has to respond to our action, so how is he indifferent? Also, any links to articles that could help me learn more is also appreciated!
Villain is indifferent to the action he could take in response to ours. A simple, non-poker example is tic tac toe which involves a pure rather than mixed strategy.

If you play a proper nash equilibrium in tic tac toe, the best your opponent can ever do is draw, he cannot win. In that sense, villain is completely indifferent to the square he puts his X (or O) in, it makes no difference. He cannot exploit you be deviating strategies.

As far as poker goes, Bill Chen's Mathematics of Poker has specific examples for poker mini-games.
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07-19-2018 , 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippyroo
Can you give an example of an opponent being indifferent to our action? He has to respond to our action, so how is he indifferent? Also, any links to articles that could help me learn more is also appreciated!
A common example is when Player A bets pot on river. For player B to break even on a call he has to call and win a third of the time.
For simplicity of this example let's say player A only has the nuts or a bluff.

For player A to have a strategy that makes player B indifferent, Player A should bet two thirds of the time with the nuts and one third of the time with a bluff.

This is the basic idea in building strategies where you can't be exploited by the other player.
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07-19-2018 , 08:08 AM
Was kinda hoping op was going to talk about the consistent limping and open limping in Low limits 1-2 and 2-5

Or

The donk leads at 1-2

Or

The general observation that 95% of low limit players will never play back at you w/o the nuts and generally why exploitive folding works at these stakes
When did poker players get so passive? Quote
07-19-2018 , 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjr777
Was kinda hoping op was going to talk about the consistent limping and open limping in Low limits 1-2 and 2-5

Or

The donk leads at 1-2

Or

The general observation that 95% of low limit players will never play back at you w/o the nuts and generally why exploitive folding works at these stakes
Live NL ez-game yuge-sized wide-range iso-raises IP pre and high frequency bet-FOLD post ftw?
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07-19-2018 , 03:11 PM
Poker by default is an incredibly dynamic game in the sense to maximize EV it depends heavily on your opponent's strategy and how you react to it. At equilibrium, however, there is often a lot of checking involved, though, depending on the situation I doubt it's any less than people would expect. So, without a specific example and dissection aside from a few hands and no context, there can't be much of a discussion.
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07-19-2018 , 04:07 PM
Jungleman kinda talks about this at 2:12

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07-19-2018 , 05:20 PM
your homegame opponents probably wont start to overbet the turn on a flush card after seeing you x/r too many flushdraws on flops and they wont shove any two over your SB limp when you only limp AA/KK and thrash
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07-19-2018 , 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BHDonkey
If you knew nothing about these players, and thought they were novices, you would label all of them "calling stations"...because that's how they played these hands. I don't recall seeing a checkraise semibluff all month by anyone...does that not work anymore in tournaments?
It might be a bad idea to semibluff with a hand like 7-high because you might get called by 7-high.
When did poker players get so passive? Quote
07-19-2018 , 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage01
I agree. Most of these so called 'top players' are just mediocre regs at best, with no balls who just xc their life away. Stop trying to excuse it as playing advanced or 'gto' its just no balls. Guys like Martin Jacobson, who is supposed to be some Boss, yet when push came to shove he got totally owned by Polks bluff in the One drop a few years ago, when he folded a monster to the only guy at the table capable of pulling a big move like that. Not impressive at all. I barely saw anyone actually trying to play poker.
How much money have you won playing poker?
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07-19-2018 , 10:22 PM
Watch DNegs' recent vlog where he talks about people criticizing the top pros who play in high rollers.
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07-19-2018 , 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic
A common example is when Player A bets pot on river. For player B to break even on a call he has to call and win a third of the time.
For simplicity of this example let's say player A only has the nuts or a bluff.

For player A to have a strategy that makes player B indifferent, Player A should bet two thirds of the time with the nuts and one third of the time with a bluff.

This is the basic idea in building strategies where you can't be exploited by the other player.
So, in other words, player A is betting the nuts vs bluffs at precisely the right ratio? Is player B indifferent when he holds the nuts and knows at this particular time player A is definitely bluffing, or is player B's hand not relevant to the general concept, just his overall range?
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07-19-2018 , 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by prahsk87
Jungleman kinda talks about this at 2:12

Is he autistic? I'm being serious. His mannerisms are always so weird every time I see him on tv.
He's better than Dwan though, isn't he? Has either Jungle or Dwan ever kissed a girl?
When did poker players get so passive? Quote
07-19-2018 , 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippyroo
So, in other words, player A is betting the nuts vs bluffs at precisely the right ratio? Is player B indifferent when he holds the nuts and knows at this particular time player A is definitely bluffing, or is player B's hand not relevant to the general concept, just his overall range?
Yes. It makes it so player B cannot exploit player A regardless of how often he chooses to call or fold.
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07-20-2018 , 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy_Tomich969
How much money have you won playing poker?
Most probably more than you.
When did poker players get so passive? Quote
07-20-2018 , 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippyroo
Is he autistic? I'm being serious. His mannerisms are always so weird every time I see him on tv.
He's better than Dwan though, isn't he? Has either Jungle or Dwan ever kissed a girl?
He’s probably on the spectrum, yes. So what?

And you’re making a fool of yourself, Scooter. Anyone who knows Tom knows he’s done quite well with the opposite sex.

But it’s easy to bash very successful people you don’t know from the anonymous safety of your Mom’s basement, isn’t it?
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07-22-2018 , 05:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swighey
Because it isn’t always optimal because no two situations are ever the same, unless they are identical (and that’s rare). Adding 10%+ to your stack is desirable but it’s equally desirable to everybody else and therefore not as desirable as it first appears.



There are many ways to give yourself two ways to win. Giving yourself three ways to win sounds like an even better idea but then maybe four ways is better....

On a side note, for every player that has played “theoretically sound” poker over a large sample size of hands and won a lot there is also a player that has played equally theoretically sound poker over same said sample size of hands and lost a lot. Well pretty much. I reckon you are just better than the players you play and if you taught them your tricks you’d all break even.



This is just not true unless every mtt they have ever played is at $10,000 level or $1000 level online. Anyone who can play theoretically sound poker can crush the lower levels
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