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whats's the point of playing anymore........... whats's the point of playing anymore...........

02-27-2024 , 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil S
Well Danny Rensch says so. But if you ask guys like Fabiano Caruana, the cheating is far more rampant than they're catching.

How do you catch someone who looks up an eval on one spot?
I eventually stopped playing Chess because a) I have back and neck problems at the PC and long hours of Chess are terrible for it and b) I have other things I'd rather spend that time on, especially considering that I already play poker and Chess offers no monetary gain to me.

Years ago, I told them that intermittent engine use was what players were using to avoid detection. Since then, people have gotten even better at it. Lichess seems to be more aware of this and as a result, catches far more cheaters based on trends throughout multiple games. Chess.com has always been playing catchup when it comes to cheat detection. PlayChess, ICC, etc - they're all pretty good with cheat detection at this point.
whats's the point of playing anymore........... Quote
02-27-2024 , 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGodson
They have software for chess.com that can detect cheating even at the grand master level. For this reason, I think it would be reasonable for software to be able to catch poker players cheating using RTA. Even at the highest levels, players are not GTO robots, so a player cheating after several hands would become quite noticeable. Especially if they start playing too perfectly.

I think PokerStars is pretty good. BetOnline has been good as well. I suspect PokerStars is safer than BetOnline, but who knows. I played live poker at the casino awhile back and the rake there was ridiculous. I even entered a tournament where the house took 25%. I doubt many are making a profit playing in a game like that. The cash games had these annoying jackpots that you had to pay into every hand as well as a 10% rake. Yeah, I think I'll stick to PokerStars with the 5% rake and 33% rakeback thank you. I played live to prepare me for the WSOP as I have little experience live. It was fun to play and chat with the other players, but if you want to make more money, I think online is definitely the way to go. You get more hands per hour and significantly less rake. Just my 2 cents.

Poker is not dead.
They have a system in chess to catch cheaters but I would wager the systems they have to catch cheaters on poker sites like Stars are far, far more advanced. Cheating is endemic in chess, you can listen to Hikaru talking over this recent C-Squared pod on the issue to get an idea of the problem.

What no one wants to admit is that the problem isn't solvable within the current constrains of the technology that is being used. If you have a clean account with access to high stakes games, you know how to setup RTA with a good system of separate networks, computers etc and you are a good player already who understands how to use the knowledge in a way that gives you an edge but doesn't make you look like a GTO bot there is literally nothing these sites can do to catch these players. You can talk all you like about improvements in security, you can't catch anyone who is sophisticated enough to know how to cheat.

You have an ecosystem where some players are still winning (prob many of them cheating), sites are still collecting rake and neither have any incentive for things to change. So as long as the losing payers keep showing up to prop up the current farce who cares if they are losing money through lack of skill or being cheated.

I feel like the vast majority of players are aware of this truth but still play if they feel like they have a win rate. We have reached a point where the cheating is so endemic that if you are playing online you almost can't complain if you are getting cheated.

“caveat emptor”
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02-27-2024 , 04:17 PM
@BlackJackDegen:

So what do you suggest? We all just stop playing in such a number that the sites finally have no choice but to cave?
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02-27-2024 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStackHunter
@BlackJackDegen:

So what do you suggest? We all just stop playing in such a number that the sites finally have no choice but to cave?
Cave and do what though? I haven't seen anyone come up with solutions?

There is a reason that once things become solvable they don't get played online for money. Poker has gotten more longevity than I ever would have imagined. I guess because the veil of ignorance is much larger than other games because luck/skill are so intertwined in the outcome.
whats's the point of playing anymore........... Quote
02-27-2024 , 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJackDegen
Cave and do what though? I haven't seen anyone come up with solutions?

There is a reason that once things become solvable they don't get played online for money. Poker has gotten more longevity than I ever would have imagined. I guess because the veil of ignorance is much larger than other games because luck/skill are so intertwined in the outcome.
Poker is by no means even close to being solved.
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02-27-2024 , 06:07 PM
I've played online poker for a living for 20 years now. 98% cash games. For all the bashing online poker has taken in this thread, I do think most of it comes down to, do you trust the site? I personally do trust the legal online facing sites in NV, NJ, Mich, Penn. They certainly are not perfect (it took them 2 months to stop a guy every 2-5 reg knew was using a solver), but I feel far more comfortable the last 3 years than i did that I am not being cheated from 2014-2020 playing on every other site imaginable. If you don't trust the site you are playing on, simply don't play on it.

With that said, live regs need to be better. The only people in the room having fun are a select few 1-2 games and stupid big games. I play once every 3-4 months when I have plenty of beers, gamble on sports, play big vpip, and talk ****. The amount of times the life has been sucked out of me within 2 hours is outrageous. Like a dealer said in this thread, the amount of times a dealer comes to table big smile and asks how everyone is doing and is met with 7 people mad at this question is just terrible.
whats's the point of playing anymore........... Quote
02-27-2024 , 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbomb
I've played online poker for a living for 20 years now. 98% cash games. For all the bashing online poker has taken in this thread, I do think most of it comes down to, do you trust the site? I personally do trust the legal online facing sites in NV, NJ, Mich, Penn. They certainly are not perfect (it took them 2 months to stop a guy every 2-5 reg knew was using a solver), but I feel far more comfortable the last 3 years than i did that I am not being cheated from 2014-2020 playing on every other site imaginable. If you don't trust the site you are playing on, simply don't play on it.

With that said, live regs need to be better. The only people in the room having fun are a select few 1-2 games and stupid big games. I play once every 3-4 months when I have plenty of beers, gamble on sports, play big vpip, and talk ****. The amount of times the life has been sucked out of me within 2 hours is outrageous. Like a dealer said in this thread, the amount of times a dealer comes to table big smile and asks how everyone is doing and is met with 7 people mad at this question is just terrible.
99% of live regs are broke. Hence they are mad.
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03-04-2024 , 08:26 PM
is there a process in place to report collusion / multicounting on betonline poker??
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03-04-2024 , 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 420legalize420
2 years ago i said here on 2p2 that online poker will die. A HS regular answered me that "people have been saying that for 10 years and online poker is alive"

And day by day my odds of being right increases. It might take more 9 to 15 years, but it will die.
How to avoid ever being wrong about a prediction: don't specify a deadline
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03-04-2024 , 11:45 PM
The earth will also eventually explode so unless we find light speed travel poker will definitely die
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03-04-2024 , 11:48 PM
Less exploding, more charred to giant piece of charcoal by expanding, dying Sun.
whats's the point of playing anymore........... Quote
08-26-2024 , 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJackDegen
Cave and do what though? I haven't seen anyone come up with solutions?

There is a reason that once things become solvable they don't get played online for money. Poker has gotten more longevity than I ever would have imagined. I guess because the veil of ignorance is much larger than other games because luck/skill are so intertwined in the outcome.
I like the idea of mimicing live poker more now that everyone easily has the bandwidth to support it. Something like webcam poker but it filters your face + facial expression into a fun character/avatar. Support can then review video footage while the player never has to show their face to players.

Also VR poker would be rad, no idea why this hasn't picked up yet in 2024.

I'd expect players would need to single table but play higher stakes (like in live casinos).
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08-26-2024 , 07:05 PM
If this is the case when what a blessing. Poker is a dead end a life sucker for most who get involved. The very smart ones make a lot of money fast and get into something else. The uncomfortable truth that forums like this try and cover up is the majority of people in the industry are losers in every sense
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08-26-2024 , 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberian13
It’s odd how miserable most players are at the tables. Like when a dealer sits down and introduces himself and tries to get the table to respond. Crickets at times
I like to play long stretches without talking but always try to take my headphones off for the dealer change to greet the incoming dealer and tip the outgoing dealer if I didn't win a hand to tip them on. Happy dealers are good for the vibe of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExit
As a dealer and former poker pro I will never understand this. There are reg pros who play everyday who still get upset every time they lose a hand. Do they not understand how poker works?
This.

And they sometimes berate the fish for making mistakes and getting there, which is just terrible all around for their games. Last month I opened AQ at a live limit Holdem table, BB defends, Flop QQ5, he calls, turn 4, he check/raises, I 3b he calls. River 3 he check/raises, I call.

He rolls the A2o for the scoop of a $1,000 pot.

What did I say to him? Nice hand.
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08-26-2024 , 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertCat
I like to play long stretches without talking but always try to take my headphones off for the dealer change to greet the incoming dealer and tip the outgoing dealer if I didn't win a hand to tip them on. Happy dealers are good for the vibe of the game.



This.

And they sometimes berate the fish for making mistakes and getting there, which is just terrible all around for their games. Last month I opened AQ at a live limit Holdem table, BB defends, Flop QQ5, he calls, turn 4, he check/raises, I 3b he calls. River 3 he check/raises, I call.

He rolls the A2o for the scoop of a $1,000 pot.

What did I say to him? Nice hand.
But it was sooooted…LOL. Agree you want that player in your game playing just like that.
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08-27-2024 , 12:04 AM
Well it's limit, so ��
whats's the point of playing anymore........... Quote
08-27-2024 , 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertCat
I like to play long stretches without talking but always try to take my headphones off for the dealer change to greet the incoming dealer and tip the outgoing dealer if I didn't win a hand to tip them on. Happy dealers are good for the vibe of the game.



This.

And they sometimes berate the fish for making mistakes and getting there, which is just terrible all around for their games. Last month I opened AQ at a live limit Holdem table, BB defends, Flop QQ5, he calls, turn 4, he check/raises, I 3b he calls. River 3 he check/raises, I call.

He rolls the A2o for the scoop of a $1,000 pot.

What did I say to him? Nice hand.
Wow, that is eerily similar to the first crazy beat I ever took. Mine was AK, flop was KK2. I c-bet, he raised, I shoved, he called with A5o. It ran out 3, 4, more or less like yours. At the time, I was flabbergasted, and it certainly contributed to my "PokerRoom is rigged" rants. Looking back on it later, it's not THAT crazy a call on his part given the way I played when I first got into poker.
whats's the point of playing anymore........... Quote
08-27-2024 , 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertCat
I like to play long stretches without talking but always try to take my headphones off for the dealer change to greet the incoming dealer and tip the outgoing dealer if I didn't win a hand to tip them on. Happy dealers are good for the vibe of the game.



This.

And they sometimes berate the fish for making mistakes and getting there, which is just terrible all around for their games. Last month I opened AQ at a live limit Holdem table, BB defends, Flop QQ5, he calls, turn 4, he check/raises, I 3b he calls. River 3 he check/raises, I call.

He rolls the A2o for the scoop of a $1,000 pot.

What did I say to him? Nice hand.
sure but so are social players no wearing headphones.
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08-27-2024 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick
This is impossible.

If the recs get better and play strategies that are close to unexploitable, then everyone will be close to the same in ability and everyone will lose to the rake, on average.

There will of course be wide differences in individual results, because variance.
Recs will never get good, they just play poker for fun.

In my 1.2 million hand database, there are roughly 120k players, half of them only played 1 tournament, 75% of them played 5 tournaments and 90% of them played less than 20 tournaments, 98% of them less than 100 tournaments, so basically the majority of players play for a bit and then are done with it.

The long term rec is not really a thing. Guy Laliberte is a good example of the average poker player experience (albeit at the highest level), they get beaten/soundly crushed and never play again.
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08-28-2024 , 02:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
sure but so are social players no wearing headphones.
Agreed, but when you play 14 hour sessions it’s hard to be chatty most if the time, especially at 3 AM, there are long stretches where I just want to watch YouTube or listen to podcasts. But I always try to listen so if anyone starts talking I can re-engage.
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08-28-2024 , 05:24 AM
There is a discussion around the future of online poker as AI gets better in the latest Solve 4 Why pod. I like Matt and think his takes are usually pretty good. This conversation though is terrible and shows no understanding of what is coming in the future. Landon is in complete denial it is even going to be a problem. Matt seems to think you need to be some uber genius with AI to create these systems. I could teach any normie to create a winning online poker bot using AI in a few weeks using currently technology.

The real issue though is the lack of understanding around future iterations and not being educated on what is coming when the base models start to incorporate reasoning which will elevate them way beyond what we have seen to this point. Read up on a project Q* which is now named Strawberry internally in Open AI, with one of the main contributors being Noam Brown. These type of base models kill online poker stone dead.

The conversation was spawned from this tweet. People have no idea what is coming in relation to these models.



Some recent info on Strawberry.

Quote:
Researchers have aimed to launch the new AI, code-named Strawberry (previously called Q*, pronounced Q Star), as part of a chatbot—possibly within ChatGPT—as soon as this fall, said two people who have been involved in the effort. Strawberry can solve math problems it hasn't seen before—something today’s chatbots cannot reliably do—and also has been trained to solve problems involving programming. But it’s not limited to answering technical questions.

The Takeaway • OpenAI demonstrated Strawberry to national security officials • Strawberry aims to improve upcoming ‘Orion’ large language model • Smaller version of Strawberry could launch in chatbot form When given additional time to “think,” the Strawberry model can also answer customers’ questions about more subjective topics, such as product marketing strategies. To demonstrate Strawberry’s prowess with language-related tasks, OpenAI employees have shown their co-workers how Strawberry can, for example, solve New York Times Connections, a complex word puzzle.

The effort to launch Strawberry is part of OpenAI’s never-ending battle to stay ahead of other well-funded rivals vying for supremacy in conversational AI, or large language models. The technology also has implications for future products known as agents that aim to solve multistep tasks. OpenAI and its rivals hope the agents can open up more revenue opportunities.

OpenAI’s business is growing at an incredible rate: Its sales of LLMs to corporations and of ChatGPT subscriptions have roughly tripled to $283 million in monthly revenue compared to a year ago, though its monthly losses are likely higher than that. The company is privately valued at $86 billion.

But OpenAI’s prospects rest in part on the eventual launch of a new flagship LLM it is currently developing, code-named Orion. That model seeks to improve upon its existing flagship LLM, GPT-4, which it launched early last year. By now, other rivals have launched LLMs that perform roughly as well as GPT-4.

It isn’t clear whether a chatbot version of Strawberry that can boost the performance of GPT-4 and ChatGPT will be good enough to launch this year. The chatbot version is a smaller, simplified version of the original Strawberry model, known as a distillation. It seeks to maintain the same level of performance as a bigger model while being easier and less costly to operate.

However, OpenAI is also using the bigger version of Strawberry to generate data for training Orion, said a person with knowledge of the situation. That kind of AI-generated data is known as “synthetic.” It means that Strawberry could help OpenAI overcome limitations on obtaining enough high-quality data to train new models from real-world data such as text or images pulled from the internet.

In addition, Strawberry could aid upcoming OpenAI agents, this person said. (Read more about OpenAI's development of agents, including those that use computers, here.)

Reducing Hallucinations

Using Strawberry to generate higher-quality training data could help OpenAI reduce the number of errors its models generate, otherwise known as hallucinations, said Alex Graveley, CEO of agent startup Minion AI and former chief architect of GitHub Copilot.

Imagine “a model without hallucinations, a model where you ask it a logic puzzle and it’s right on the first try,” Graveley said. The reason why the model is able to do that is because “there is less ambiguity in the training data, so it’s guessing less.”

Earlier this month, CEO Sam Altman tweeted an image of strawberries without elaborating, fanning the flames of speculation about an upcoming release. OpenAI also gave demonstrations of Strawberry to national security officials this summer, said a person with direct knowledge of those meetings. (Read more about this in AI Agenda.)

“We feel like we have enough [data] for this next model,” Altman said at an event in May, likely referring to Orion. “We have done all sorts of experiments including generating synthetic data.”

He is also looking to secure more money for the company and find ways to reduce its losses. OpenAI has raised about $13 billion from Microsoft since 2019 as part of a business partnership with the enterprise software giant contracted to last through 2030, said a person who was briefed about it. The terms of the partnership could change, including how OpenAI pays Microsoft to rent cloud servers for developing its AI, this person said. Cloud servers are the biggest cost for OpenAI.

An OpenAI spokesperson did not have a comment for this article. Reuters earlier reported on the Strawberry name and its reasoning goals.

A Lucrative Application

AI that solves tough math problems could be a potentially lucrative application, given that existing AI isn’t great at math-heavy fields such as aerospace and structural engineering. It’s a goal that has tripped up AI researchers, who have found that conversational AI—ChatGPT and its ilk—is prone to giving wrong answers that would flunk any math student.

Improvements in mathematical reasoning could also help AI models reason better about conversational queries, such as customer service requests.

Google and a number of startups are also hard at work on development of reasoning technology. Last month, Google DeepMind said its AI would beat most human participants in the International Mathematical Olympiad. Another major rival, Anthropic, said its latest LLM could write more-complicated software code than its prior LLMs could, and answer questions about charts and graphs, thanks to improvements in its reasoning capabilities.

To improve models’ reasoning, some startups have been using a cheap hack that involves breaking down a problem into smaller steps, though the workarounds are slow and expensive.

Regardless of whether Strawberry launches as a product, expectations are running high for Orion as OpenAI looks to stay ahead of its rivals and continue its remarkable revenue growth. Earlier this month, for instance, Google beat OpenAI to launch an AI-powered voice assistant flexible enough to handle interruptions and sudden topic changes from users, despite OpenAI first announcing its version in May.

And LLMs from other model developers like Google, xAI, Anthropic and Meta Platforms are quickly catching up to OpenAI’s on leaderboards such as the Lmsys Chatbot Arena, though OpenAI models are far and away the top choice for business buyers and AI application developers.

What Ilya Saw

Strawberry has its roots in research. It was started years ago by Ilya Sutskever, then OpenAI's chief scientist. He recently left to start a competing AI lab. Before he left, OpenAI researchers Jakub Pachocki and Szymon Sidor built on Sutskever's work by developing a new math-solving model, Q*, alarming some researchers focused on AI safety.

The breakthrough and safety conflicts at OpenAI came just before OpenAI board directors—led by Sutskever—fired Altman before quickly rehiring him.

Last year, in the leadup to Q*, OpenAI researchers developed a variation of a concept known as test-time computation, meant to boost LLMs’ problem-solving abilities. The method gives them the opportunity to spend more time considering all parts of a command or question someone has asked the model to execute. At the time, Sutskever published a blog post related to this work.

Last edited by BlackJackDegen; 08-28-2024 at 05:41 AM.
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08-28-2024 , 06:34 AM
btw, I think reasoning of some sort will mark a huge pivot point for AI in general that will effect almost every area in society. I think of current AI trajectory, like the part when you are getting pulled up a roll coaster on chains and once you incorporate a decent level of reasoning is when you tip over the edge onto the actual roller coaster. The inference costs are the current main impediment from what I have read which the article above says Open AI have tried to tackle in various ways. Generally though we only think about inference costs in terms of having a model that works at mass scale. So what will be available to us as consumers.

The real question though is who cares about the cost if the model can solve real world problems that humans currently can't do that would completely transform the world outside of AI. So what that means is lets imagine the inference cost is huge. Who cares about the cost if it is giving cures for cancer, math problems, etc.

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08-28-2024 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NV8020
Recs will never get good, they just play poker for fun.

In my 1.2 million hand database, there are roughly 120k players, half of them only played 1 tournament, 75% of them played 5 tournaments and 90% of them played less than 20 tournaments, 98% of them less than 100 tournaments, so basically the majority of players play for a bit and then are done with it.

The long term rec is not really a thing. Guy Laliberte is a good example of the average poker player experience (albeit at the highest level), they get beaten/soundly crushed and never play again.
I'm now a rec and am pretty sure I am a better player than you.
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08-28-2024 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJackDegen
I think of current AI trajectory, like the part when you are getting pulled up a roll coaster on chains and once you incorporate a decent level of reasoning is when you tip over the edge onto the actual roller coaster.
thanks gonna steal this

think the chamath tweet you posted is correct, but not sure about the follow-on comment that the end game is zero humans only competing bot models duking it out. that doesn't make sense, at least given current rake structures.

business idea: create a site with zero KYC rules, cap rake at 0.0001%, speed up decision time to act @ 10ms and let the bot battles begin
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08-28-2024 , 06:10 PM
Chamath likes to have some hot takes sometimes, but I think he is wrong often. I think he is wrong here as well. Time will tell.
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