there's one, most likely option missing: too high rake

Since this is probably the biggest collection of poker players on the internet, surely we can develop a bot that absolutely destroys the whole game right? There should be plenty of software engineers, mathematicians, psychologists, statisticians etc etc. The software engineers will deal with the actual mechanics of the bot and the input will be done by groups that work on different aspects of the game until it is basically solved.

Let's say we have 1000 people on this working in an organized manner, how long should it take for us to solve it? With the aid of simulations every line can be tested for an almost infinite sample and every leak can be properly dealt with given there are so many of us. There are already bots that are pretty amazing, it is only a matter of time before a group of people decides to put the hours into it and achieve a bot that is actually impossible to beat. Imagine a bot network of only 50 accounts that will be joining the 100NL+ zoom player pools, it will be impossible for anyone else to make a profit. At that point I'd say poker is dead.

pretty sure you don't understand what it means for a game to be "solved". Humans lack computing power to do it.

Pretty sure you're wrong. I don't mean "solved" in the sense that it is perfect, like I said to make it impossible to beat for other people. Actually I didn't even say beat, I said impossible for other people to make a profit.

Exactly!

If all the money eventually ends up with Isai Scheinberg, you should be able to figure out that something is wrong with online poker. Compare your winnings to the rake paid over the years and you'll see what I mean.

except that's not what "solved" in game context means. "Solved" means GTO. If you're talking about something else, use another word, this one is already taken.

ISP ban or blocking

defo rake. An open source site needs to start, a site for players by players not motivated by profit but motivated by a desire to see the games continue. Greed is killing the games.

Whats killing the games worse are all people who want to make a living off the games. Doesnt matter what the rake is when you have so many people playing for a living. Did people think it would be sustainable to make a living from online cash games for decades?

there's not that many people playing in the usa. tons of people quit after black friday including regs and casual players. if the games are brought back mainstream with marketing to the masses, games will be sustainable for a long time. regulation with jail time for people who cheat and break the laws will be a big help in discouraging bots, cheating, etc. it's not all doom and gloom. however it is rainbows and unicorns to think we'll get federal regulation. politicians will keep us suffocated and unprotected.

This sort of rationale doesn't get near the attention it deserves. Poker playing as a profession for the masses was simply propped up much like any stock market or regional job bubble. There was never any true sustainability in it since so much of that first 10 years of money in the poker world came from recreational players (mostly in the US). Everyone knows what happened to this pool of money. Given the fact that enough time has passed, even if all the US were legal again, there is no way the numbers would be anywhere close. I'm actually pretty decent at poker, but I would never in a million years play online on a site that allowed tracking software. You little chits have ruined the game and aren't actually playing poker anymore.

The game as it had been played for hundreds of years meant every decision you made had to be done based on information in your head. Since the beginning of poker. Now, you play a game where computers make those decisions or at least guide them. Not the same game. So in the online world, you all collectively killed it by allowing that chit to take place.

And now you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

GG.

I used to ride people around on a horse for decades carriage until those darn cars came. They're not even driving a horse like they used to, those little chits have ruined the business.

I am not a fan of 20-tabling nit robots. In fact I hope they go on 1000+ buy in downswings and go completely broke. However you cannot blame them for using tools that are available and take advantage of it, like any other person can do. Nothing will ever change that, it is merely a logical step in improving on how to play the game better. The fact that they play boring as hell is a result of a flawed game, like I don't watch the Tour de France because I get bored of watching people ride their bike for 4 hours straight.

OLP is only suffering because a entire continent cant play legally...OLP is dead in america thats for damn sure

I disagree with this logic. I appreciate the analogy, but I think there are better ones.

Take golf as an example of a game that has evolved over centuries. Let's compare an individual game to another individual game. Or apples to apples. Cars and buggies don't really apply, but I like the analogy because it makes me think of Danny Devito in Other People's Money and his monologue on buggy whips.

The game of golf has had MAJOR technological advances, but the game EVOLVED. It did not dramatically change overnight, the way online poker did with the aid of computers.

The thing that makes evolution work so well is that it is slow and deliberate. As companies found ways to make golf balls fly straighter, further and golf clubs that could spin the ball so precisely, the golf community made sure the advances never CHANGED the game. But rather, oversight and simple adjustments/rules were made along the way to match those advances in technology. Surely someone has invented a machine that would allow you to shoot a golf ball out of a precise cannon and have it fly 500 yards, but the rules of the game don't allow it. And those rules are enforceable.

Problem for poker is advances in technology were allowed to spread like wildfire without any form of adequate rules enforcement, oversight or true long-term vision planning.

Missing was the crucial piece of oversight that made sure that the right rules enforcement or security was adequately in place BEFORE these things could be introduced into the online world.

So, if you think your online poker world is now a car compared to the online poker world of 2005, which was just a horse. Then, by all means, drive it like you stole it.

I would argue that online poker (not just in terms of where it can be played, but rather the actual game itself), was actually a much better game than the one you play today.

Bots don't have to be anywhere near 'impossible to beat' to kill poker. All they have to do is play better than the average poker player and they will utterly destroy the game. The future of online poker is humans running stables of multi-tabling bots for ever diminishing profit.

Havent people been making a living off poker for decades though the issue is OLP/media caused the game to evolve more rapidly older people who came to have a good time dont wanna play with the young wannabe talking about expected value at the table also that same wannabe isnt donating $1000 to the reg games like they use to since that player is now broke..
also i noticed that crazy guy with money to burn open shoving AK no longer wants to play in the knit fest inffected games of today poker overall has become tighter in America Black Friday destroyed a ecosystem

Ok maybe the golf analogy is better as a whole but what I mean by cars and horses is that it is actually a rapid change rather than a slow one (golf), in my view it fits better with what happen9ed) in poker given a game that has been around for ages has had such a rapid increase in tools to assist. And for the record, I don't like it any more than you do.

The problem in online poker is that the software that is made is so hard to police since it doesn't even need to run on the same computer. No matter how many rules sites make, they will never be able to enforce it and given the recently discovered bot network, people are able to make tons of money before being discovered. Actually the fact it came out might have spread the idea more widely that making bots is in fact effective and makes money and I don't want to defend Brian Hastings but like he said; it is better for poker if this stays quiet.

That doesn't make it right and I certainly think the right thing is to make it public and make people aware of the crimes/dangers, it is a shame it has to be that way though. To be honest when I first started playing poker I had high doubts bots could ever play this complex game as effective as humans can but clearly I've been proven wrong already. What is going to happen in the future can only make matters worse and for that reason I think online poker is doomed. Bots don't need to be perfect as long as they are playing against a player pool that doesn't have the skills to play the math spots as well and doesn't realize it is up against a bot. Games will actually last longer the less bots are revealed but as soon as more bots get uncovered the more people are going to (be right about) abandoning the games.

Again I am not blaming people for using HUDs and software to analyze hands, I think it's all fair game even when I don't like it. Botting is a totally different story and I'm curious to see what will happen in the future, I might end up being completely wrong.

Yeah but live poker you can only play 1 table at a time. Online poker would be much better overall and more sustainable with simple things like 4 table max for cash games and no huds. The current problem (aside from the obvious BF) is that too many people are playing for a living.

made me think of these:




bonus:

Lack of sites where one can turn a reasonable profit. That time is not yet, but it is pretty close. The other problem is the player pool and the quality of games, already having turned the interest elsewere. Similar to live booms, but whatever, live is still good in the usa, just cant get there. Comparable live arena somewhere where one could get, there i would be. But as it is, online poker is not dead yet and one can possibly limp it through still during my lifetime, just isnt sure. I hope eu etc. bigger pools where the online criminals will be arrested, and the game quality would also step up a level, though with a cut in rb. The cuts being another huge issue.

lol this can be said about any sport though. Its like saying i could start basketball tomorrow and become and NBA player in 2 years time. After all NBA players earn millions. I will be rich if I make it.

Simple fact of the matter is... it aint gonna happen. Because I have no natural talent for the game and im only 5ft 10. (which i guess is also part of the natural talent). This is why i will not be an NBA player.... but does that mean i should never play basketball? Does that mean i should NEVER go to a court and play basketball with my friends? Or even in a league? ... No... because really you should play to enjoy the game. First and foremost it should be about FUN (which a lot of people dont seem to realise). Isildur is a classic example actually. How many times have we hear that viktor blom loves cards and poker? Many times. He just happens to be a sicko as well.

If every player on my basketbal team paid $10 a week to play a game, thats a small amount for a lot of fun. But this money flows up wards. To the players at the highgest levels. Which really is what should happen in poker.

This is where poker is flawed though - as people only want to play people worse than them, the money doesnt flow upwards like it does in any other sport. But then equally I would also argue... if i was an NBA player the last thing i want to do is play in some $10 game where im going to utterly destroy everyone (and make a pathetic sum of money in the process)

As for the bots i do agree with that too. But.. ive never seen a bot before but my argument towards a Bot would be...isnt poker about adjusting? So even a Bot is going to play in a style or way, in which you can surely adjust and then beat the bot? If they adjust... then you adjust again.

As someone in the UK im not too affected any way. Im just hoping for the day when poker explodes in India and China and instead of having 500k players across sites, we have like 10 million and stakes and limits weve never seen before, id even go as far to say if poker took off in China and India we could have stakes in which people buy in for 1 - 2 million

Claudico poker bot

Agree about India and China. It would be great for the online game for a while by pouring money into it. But I guarantee you there will be some corrupt chit coming out of those two countries. I have been to both. And in 10 years time, you will end up in the exact same spot. Adding more/better geographies without making RADICAL changes, is just kicking the can further down the road.

As for your sports analogy, I think you may have missed my point. This isn't about talent or the likelihood of being a professional etc.. It is about the fact that the communities/governments that oversee poker allowed the introduction of tools to a game that dramatically changed that game to the point where it was no longer the same game.

Imagine the governing bodies of golf suggesting that golf is really all about just getting the ball in the hole and didn't have any rules about what tools were used to make that happen.

What makes me better at poker than a lot of people is inside my head. I have a fantastic memory and I store that information in my brain and am very good at recalling that when I need it. To allow the game to develop in a way that COMPLETELY REMOVED THIS IMPORTANT ELEMENT, was reckless and short-sighted and now online poker will never be the same again.

So, again, GG online poker. See you kids on the actual felt.

If you're in the states you just have to wait around for a while for regulated online poker just like regulated weed. My state kinda has both in an infancy stage, but still things are looking up!











If you're in the south you might be ****ed tho....