What percentage of players have cheated online? - Poker News

What percentage of players do you believe have cheated at online poker?

This includes such things as RTA, ghosting, looking up charts while in a hand, asking friends, asking AI, and any other method you can imagine.

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02-10-2024 , 10:38 PM

Tuma

Worships Amon-Ra

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 16,401

At one point Doug Polk stated it's fine and not against TOS to use Upswing's preflop charts.

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02-10-2024 , 10:50 PM

H.O.R.S.E.

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 267

Doug Polk won most his money cheating. I would love to see him in a heads-up match vs a good player but he's not allowed to use software or have a team doing analysis for him.

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02-10-2024 , 10:51 PM

H.O.R.S.E.

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 267

Anyway, real answer is probably about 40%. Lots of casual players let their friend play on their account, or play on their friend's account, or collude with their friend if they end up on the same table in a tournament, etc.

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02-10-2024 , 11:39 PM

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,096

Using a chart that isn't too hard to memorize isn't cheating.

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02-10-2024 , 11:45 PM

Tutejszy

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,633

with definitions this strict, I imagine close to 100% recs and a big percentage of pros. I've heard long time recs actively brag about colluding online to show how smart they are, can't imagine many of them sharing 2p2's approach to ethics

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02-11-2024 , 12:34 AM

Dr. Meh

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,351

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Sklansky

Using a chart that isn't too hard to memorize isn't cheating.

Memorizing charts and studying is one thing. I’m thinking more about people who don’t put in that effort and just reference the charts mid hand.

Starting this thread, I see that is a bit controversial as to whether or not it constitutes cheating. It seems Doug Polk doesn’t think so but I’m trying to follow the same standards of live poker where referencing charts you keep in your pocket when action is on you is certainly not acceptable.

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02-11-2024 , 12:53 AM

Frenbar

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,308

It depends on whether you consider having more than one account "cheating". Many years ago I signed up for an account without knowing what I was doing, and then when I found out about rakeback I abandoned it and signed up for another account with rakeback enabled. I don't consider it cheating but it was against the terms of service.

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02-11-2024 , 01:48 AM

mattyonuts

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 19

I think anyone that played serious/semi serious from 2005/2010ish would have been guilty of some form of ghosting.Helping someone at a FT or asking about hands was very common and almost looked at with innocence as far as i could tell

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02-11-2024 , 02:13 AM

#10

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,096

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Meh

It is still not cheating when it's not hard to memorize. Would you rather someone came into your game consulting a chart as opposed to not using one because he memorized it?

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02-11-2024 , 02:19 AM

#11

Polarbear1955

adept

Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 955

Difficult enough to memorize so the cheater using the chart did not memorize it.

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02-11-2024 , 02:32 AM

#12

Mlark

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 1,689

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Sklansky

It is still not cheating when it's not hard to memorize. Would you rather someone came into your game consulting a chart as opposed to not using one because he memorized it?

The charts are hard to memorize though. Whether or not it is cheating depends on the site TOS.

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02-11-2024 , 04:22 AM

#13

Dr. Meh

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,351

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Sklansky

It is still not cheating when it's not hard to memorize. Would you rather someone came into your game consulting a chart as opposed to not using one because he memorized it?

You’re trying to change the premise of the discussion. The question isn’t which I would RATHER have in my game. It’s what would constitute cheating at the table. There’s a big difference between cheating and preparation but you seem to be trying to argue they are the same. They aren’t.

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02-11-2024 , 10:51 AM

#14

pokerfan655

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,386

There was so much cheating online years ago - tons and tons of ghosting. I remember I staked someone in a 109 and they went deep - I basically ghosted him to a win. All those big final tables had ghosting going on - was a part of staking.

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02-11-2024 , 11:07 AM

#15

madlex

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 17,460

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuma

At one point Doug Polk stated it's fine and not against TOS to use Upswing's preflop charts.

Is it against ToS today? I was always under the impression that was perfectly fine.

Other stuff like ghosting and buying/exchanging mined hands are considered cheating today but weren't back in the day. Pretty sure almost everyone who was successful 15 years ago did at least one of those two things. Ghosting was pretty standard in most coaching settings for example and obviously common in all poker house settings.

Also the GOAT poker video (Go wake up Emil!) was technically ghosting.

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02-11-2024 , 11:37 AM

#16

Zamadhi

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 385

Only RFI charts seem to be allowed according to Pokerstars ToS:

Quote:

Permitted Tools and Services
The following are generally acceptable:

* Reference material that is static and basic in nature, such as simple table-based starting hand charts advising on what hands to play or not in unopened pots.

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02-11-2024 , 12:01 PM

#17

tercet

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 8,001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuma

At one point Doug Polk stated it's fine and not against TOS to use Upswing's preflop charts.

Doug Polk thinks its fine to use VPN's for his staking stable horses since uhhh 2011?12? (I might be off by a year or two either way)

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02-11-2024 , 12:28 PM

#18

SimpleRick

banned

Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 4,660

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Sklansky

Using a chart that isn't too hard to memorize isn't cheating.

Aha but using a chart that's impossible to memorize is cheating. And since smarter people can memorize more than dumber people what might be not hard for a smart person like you to memorize might be impossible for a stupid person like me to memorize. So where do we draw the line? If we're evening the game by taking out a player's advantage why not just let me use a solver during a hand? I mean it's still gambling, you could still get lucky, just take out all of the skill. Poker of the future: everyone play's face up with calculators and phones out.

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02-11-2024 , 03:25 PM

#19

AlanBostick

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 11,490

Five years ago I had the opening-range charts from Peter Clarke's The Grinder's Manual on Post-Its on the wall above my monitor. Even longer ago than that, when I was grinding LHE, I had the opening-range chart from Stox & Zobags' Winning in Tough Holdem Games on a (software) sticky. It never occurred to me that this might be cheating, it being something that literally anyone could do with a pencil and paper. Eventually I got to where I never needed to consult the charts.

I mean, really. Tracking software and a HUD gives an edge an order of magnitude greater than referring to preflop charts in-game.

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02-11-2024 , 03:29 PM

#20

AlanBostick

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 11,490

You know that poker used to be known, literally, as "the cheating game," right?

Last edited by AlanBostick; 02-11-2024 at 03:30 PM. Reason: I wonder how many sidewalk three-card monte hustlers cheat?

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02-11-2024 , 03:31 PM

#21

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,096

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimpleRick

Easy for the person himself to memorize. I am not trying to "even" the game. I am simply not in favor of labelling a player a cheater if his only crime is laziness.

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02-11-2024 , 03:58 PM

#22

SetTheLine

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2022 Posts: 251

Guilty of ghosting (and using a HUD?) As is every other HS player in the past 20 years.

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02-11-2024 , 04:01 PM

#23

nootaboos

grinder

Join Date: May 2023 Posts: 550

Wtf uses charts?

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02-11-2024 , 04:01 PM

#24

franklymydearirais

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 212

70% of poker players have cheated online.

The other 30% cheat live.

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02-11-2024 , 06:05 PM

#25

Koshko

adept

Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 901

Quote:

Originally Posted by madlex

Haha they video was great!

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