That’s like saying someone who takes a Spanish exam and memorises every possible sentence without understanding the grammar is cheating.

1. It’s impossible to do
2. It’s not cheating since doesn’t break any rule and is being prepared

'Such as' implies one example of several, not the only permissible example

I don't understand the hangup on charts for a few reasons:

1) I recently got back online after basically zero activity since the dawn of solvers. I legit took a break from online play just before AI got y'all into this GTO wave.

2) Because it was quickly apparent that games were different even at the lowest levels, I quickly started studying to figure out this whole GTO obsession.

3) I quickly realized that, despite never studying prior, most of my preflop decisions had evolved to become very similar to all the GTO charts I downloaded.

4) I started referencing said GTO charts during play for the purpose of disciplining myself and testing the effects of same.

5) Charts are okay for getting into a habit of playing a playable range of hands from each position but they do nothing for post flop play which creates 90+% of EV anyway

6) charts tell you how to avoid losing money against a perfect bot, nothing more, nothing less

7) none of you are perfect bots

8) the only reason I'm breaking even right now is bluffing spots post flop against people using GTO charts

9) "memorizing" charts isn't difficult: "no offsuit Broadway's with tens from EP, all suited connectors from button," boom I've just summarized or paraphrased how to memorize GTO RFI charts

My guess is the people whining about people using charts are still losing money despite using GTO charts

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Even a 10th grader in calculus is pretty impressive, assuming we're talking about the U.S. I work at college prep high school now, and even a junior taking calc is the exception. Most of them are seniors.

My wife's US college calculus was basically the same as my non-US high school calculus.

But I doubt that has much impact on cheating in online poker

So the answer to the question "What percentage of players have cheated online?" is "it depends on your definition of cheating".

Of course.

However, the assumption here is using charts is against the rules. Of course if a site/casino allows charts then using one is not cheating. That is axiomatic.

Sklansky seems to think that if they are simple charts and the player is using them because he is too lazy to memorize them, he isn't cheating. Laziness is an excuse to get a pass on the rules.

That is simply wrong.

Sorry, my bad. Had that backwards. I was originally going to use Algebra (which was 7th grade), but I figured I would go a bit more complex and changed it to Calculus without changing the grade.

Omfg, can someone please explain to me how they came to the conclusion that 2 out of 3 people or more have cheated online??

Yeah I took Calc AB as a 10th grader that was 3 years advanced. To get to that point I had to go to High School in 8th grade to take a math class (Integrated 3 Mathematics) at 7am and then walk to my middle school at 8am.

That's why I liked the show 2 months 2 million so much. "These former high school math whizzes..." and I'm watching and thinking, "Yeah, that's me".

Ghosting is cheating. Using charts outside of the extreme simple pre flop variants is cheating.

Depending on who you talk to:

• Using a HUD is cheating.
  
• Using tracking softare to study oppontents is cheating.
  
• Buying datamined or otherwise shared hand databases is cheating.
  
• Using work product derived from purchased or shared hand databases (i.e. MDA), even as out-of-game study aid is cheating. (*)

The last point means that anyone who has ever watched a Patrick Howard/Mobius Poker video on YouTube is a cheater.

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(*) Note that 2p2 is now owned by the seller of software that is the best tool around for MDA, and thus is explicitly profiting from cheating.

The online community is funny. 90% try and justify or rationalize "cheating" by whatever means necessary dependent on which method you use. Not everyone here is understanding of what cheating is, not even the ****ing site creator. I'd just guess anybody who plays online understands there is a high likelihood they are being ghosted by someone at the minimum when it comes to cheating (and yep, throughout the years there have been times where I chatted over the phone with a buddy or text while he was playing or whatever so I'm guilty too).

However, for someone young who played back in the 04-05 era until black Friday and then came back briefly in 18-19 and now back for the last year it is uncanny what is believed to be acceptable within the online scene. I have always preferred live, but this **** with solvers, RTA, and especially HUDs (this isn't deemed as hardcore as the first two but it is widely used and is most certainly cheating and you're a POS if you think otherwise) have become such a problem-and then you have bots to deal with and no idea how many are out there.

It's just rampant, and given I can still beat the game Its all the more frustrating to realize how much more profitable it could be if this stuff wasn't allowed/not happening. But it always has and always will. From mechanics back in the day, to Russ Hamilton, to the **** today....when there is money up for grabs-someone will try and steal it.

David, consulting charts while playing is cheating if by the book, but this is the type of stuff I think that falls into that gray area where everyone knows they are at risk of people doing. Using software on the other hand is definitely not something a lot of recs are figuring they might be up against. IF someone whipped out a preflop chart, I don't even know what that is but can assume, in a live game to consult during every tough decision you might roll your eyes but eventually I think the table would have a problem with it due obviously to the OPPHR.

edit: I mean if you're so bad you have to consult a ****ing chart before making your decisions then just quit.

There are platforms on which tracking software and HUDs are deemed completely legit. There are platforms for which tracking software and HUDs are against the TOS and take measures to prevent their use. There are platforms that provide basic HUD capability in their client.

Whether or not using a HUD is cheating is going to depend the platform in question.

Disagree. Yes, the site may say it's ok for whatever reason (i.e. they know they can't stop it or are too lazy to stop it so they just say its allowed so nobody can bitch) but in the rules of poker it is breaking the one player to a hand rule. Online should be the same as how poker was made, it's just unfortunate these things can't be policed so people justify that they really think having a computer tell them information about a player is a legit way to play.

I still play at times but I'm fully aware I'm at a disadvantage. So I don't really bitch about it but when people want to justify it that's not cool. Just admit to what it is, whether deemed "ok" by TOS or not it is at least highly unethical for what poker is supposed to be.

Poker is just a different game unfortunately at this point. Online poker is definitely not what poker is supposed to be, but it would always be this way when technology was involved. When there is money to be made, people will steal, cheat, mislead, etc. Just the way it is, but be honest about it.

There are no universal "rules of poker". Same as with every other game the rules are what people who play the game agree on or how the operator of the game defines them.

If we play hide and seek in my house there might be other rules than what the neighbors use to play hide and seek in their house. It would be absurd to suggest that something would be cheating in my house even though the rules allow for it only because it's considered cheating in my neighbors house.

If I host a poker game in my house and one of the house rules is that on the river you're allowed to ask one other player of your choice for advice, that's not cheating. It's just the way the game is played at my house. If an online poker room has no OPTAH policy, ghosting is not cheating. If PokerStars didn't have such a rule 20 years ago, ghosting was not cheating back then.

Using a HUD at a platform that doesn't allow for HUDs is cheating. Not using a HUD on a platform that does allow for HUDs is probably -EV.

Suppose a player is running Holdem Manager on the computer they use to play online and is processing the hand histories as they are generated. This player is running a HUD.

To break the OPTAH rule, there needs to be someone else giving advice. Who here is the "someone else"?

Does taking notes by hand in a live game violate OPTAH?

Personally I think having 100+ stats on a player over a large sample and being able to interpret those stats to exploit said player is pretty obviously cheating.

So using the equity exploit was in your opinion not cheating since the site allowed you to do it and had no formal rule forbidding it?

Trying to justify to yourself your own actions in the past? Good luck with that....

What is absurd is your post. Ghosting is cheating, period. Any attempt to try to justify that because 'PokerStars didn't have specific rule about it' is horses**t. I assume it is OK to hack into someone else's computer and see their actions during a live hand in which you are playing in the same game as them, because there is not a 'specific rule' about not being allowed to hack into someone else's computer? It is OK to place a nanny cam in another player's home where they typically play online poker to see their cards because there is not a specific rule banning you from using nanny cams. It is all excuses to try to justify unethical play.

Your examples are even worse and not remotely the same thing. Stop, just stop.

It's a pretty stupid discussion. Ghosting was 100% accepted pre BF by everyone including poker sites. CardRunners and DeucesCracked were full of videos of coaches ghosting their students. Nobody had an issue with that until it became frowned upon one day.

Personally I don't care if someone says I cheated by ghosting all my students or by living in poker houses where everybody ghosted everybody else.

Same thing with sharing HHs/databases. All regs in study groups did it back in the day and nobody had an issue with it. The first time that topic came up was when people claimed Hastings cheated Isildur.

All I wanted to say was that if we put the bar that low then almost everyone who played professionally in the mid to late 2000s is a cheater.

10 years from now we'll be looking back at today and be amazed at how no one cared about people using bots, RTA or sharing hole cards.

We're all doing it anyway, right?

Adapt or die.

Poker is a very predatory game, what percentage of players do you think would cheat if given the opportunity?

I'm not talking about borderline stuff, I'm talking about straight up access to hole cards.