Hard to take you seriously with a silly reply like this. My point is in regards to Tony - people are paying substantial sums of money to attend TR events so the marketplace feels there is value. Obviously there's value to mindset coaching - it can't be quantified but mindset is what separates very successful people from the average.

Instead of giving a penny to poker mindset coaches, poker players would be better off consuming the following Robbins info products:

Unlimited Power (book)

Awaken the Giant Within (book)

https://www.youtube.com/@TonyRobbinsLive/playlists (excellent youtube videos subdivided into differently themed playlists)

My criticism is against the poker mindset coaches who are kindergarten level relative to the likes of Tony Robbins, James Loehr, Robert Dilts, the positive psychology movement (Csickszentmihalyi, Ellen Langer, Martin Seligman, etc.) the Stoics including Victor Frankl, and others.

These are the people the kindergarten level poker mindset coaches are copying from. Flow, reframing, Three P's (pervasive, personal, permanent), creative visualization, meditation, awareness, unconscious competence, focus on what you can control, etc. These are the sources. The poker mindset coaches are just copying them.

1. There is v little link between Cardner and Tendler. I appreciate she has all the qualifications =/= she's working to a high level.

2. Similar to the earlier poster imo I think what Jared Tendler charges for an hours' session is completely ridiculous. Simultaneously if it works/gets results/helps you make progress i) it's worth every penny ii) it maybe underpriced

Does Cardner really have "all the qualifications?" I think her psychology PhD is from Argosy University, a school you might want to read about, and which I understand is now closed down.

Mason

It's sad they are people like Jonathan Little with no ethics willing to take people's money promising results he knows he cant deliver. We could create a website analysing available results and value for money indicator of coaches but I doubt the right people would find it

Ironically that website would probably do more harm than good. Very sure you can't trust the majority of people's opinion. For example i find it quite absurd how many people that promoted Elliot Roe despite him charging 2k / hour. I did a few sessions before he was super hyped up for 1/10th of that so not hating or anything when i say it's very far from worth 2k per/ h

Really ? How so ?

I'll give you one example. He came on this website and stated that I gave other books by D&B Publishing better reviews than I gave his books because we had turned down publishing his first book and were jealous of it's success. The problem with his statement was that he never submitted any of his books to us for possible publication.

Mason

But that's my point.

It ****ing ain't worth $2k/hour.

But if it actually does something (positive) for you(r life) then maybe it provides >2k worth of value. AND you'd have a v hard time to convince me that that's a wrong hypothesis.

You get offered 2 100 per cent identical Big Macs from the same McDonald's cooked at the same time, prepared at the same time, served at the same time. The first one is $100. The second one is $5.

I'd walk. I wouldn't want a Big Mac from such an establishment, even though I will eat Big Macs.

The example invites the question of wtf is actually being sold in the $100 Big Mac, drugs or what ?

McDonald's sells consistency, something is suspect; try another hypothetical if you have a point to make.

I'm too obtuse to get whatever you're trying to explain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLttd33j-GQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUgeQwtwj7Q

And here's the post where he made that claim:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...3&postcount=58

Mason

He targets clueless new players to poker because anyone half-decent would see he doesn't know what he's talking about

I saw one promo video where he talked about binking one live tournament in the early 2000s, and was selling it like "if you subscribe to my coaching and work hard you can do the same"

He produced a cash game "masterclass", which he's clearly not qualified to do, having no proven results in respectable cash games and being years behind the curve of coaches on other training sites. He has a poor understanding of poker, spreading misconceptions and random incoherent ideas or going down solver rabbit holes instead of understanding the game theory and how money is made

Tricia Cardner admitted she's not a good poker player....

....but you should learn from her anyway....

...and to pad her non-existent credibility, they attach Jonathan Little in as her co-author...

...but in turns out Little's credibility has been doubted too.

LOLOL

You might have to explain the point to me.

If not Reggie Steer is going on mute. I appreciate you have touched upon some interesting points in this thread but from what I've read you seem to be trolling non-stop.

And on the theme of this thread: my time is too valuable to waste on you

Self explanatory. Jeez.

I asked a poker professional last night about coaching, he crushes live in 2023. He mentioned a coaches name and said coaching can be valuable. I guess you have to credentials on the person. Would you spend thousands to have your bathroom redone without reviews on their previous work? I certainly wouldn't! I had 8 grand of work done on my teeth I wanted to know the guy working on me was good. He has like 300 5 star ratings. . . Think it's a good idea!

Honnold went from the best to the worst free climber?

He's speaking to Pete Clarke on Twitch now.

I think Pete charges far too much considering his abilities and is just a talker. His website basically says that as he doesn't have a big sample he won't share his results.

Elliot seems quite good at what he does and you might be able to get >$2k worth of value for your session, but I don't think that's necessarily the most cost-effective option.

For instance, let's say you're a top player / competitor and experience a lot of performance stress and anxiety/depression. You could try Elliot Roe, but you could also try finding a therapist and pay 5%-10% the cost (depending on where you live). It's possible you don't need a top-of-the-line performance coach, but perhaps a mental health professional can help you handle it all the same. Maybe it's as simple as just needing someone to talk to, which shouldn't cost $2k.

As posters mentioned above, exercise, mindfulness, and breathing/relaxation techniques are also smart to prioritize in your life before paying top dollar.

And if you try all that stuff and it doesn't work for you, then you can always go back and try Elliot, but imo a lot of it is regular therapy with a premium branding slapped on it to attract customers that are not price sensitive. I imagine he's able to charge so much because he can put the faces of elite competitors / performers on his page and sell it as something completely different. A key part of anchoring people to a much higher price is selling it as almost an entirely new product (Think: Starbucks is just overpriced coffee, but the branding / façade sells it)

A common argument from performance coaches is that their specific knowledge about their niche industry is what makes them so valuable, but the main downside of their offering is that it's usually entirely self-taught and there's little hard evidence to back up their claims. On the other hand, therapists and mental health professionals have less specific knowledge, but often have PhDs and their practices are evidence-based and regulated. Basically, performance coaches are subjective and based mostly on social-proofing, whereas the mental health industry has a scientific basis (though it has its own flaws).

Further, many poker players really should be seeing a therapist anyway, and some of their emotional problems / stresses are related to life circumstances (wife, kids, bills etc) and traumas (abuse, toxic money beliefs, family history of mental illness etc). A performance coach won't be able to deal with that as effectively.

One thing that would change my opinion is to see some more concrete data on the efficacy of performance coaches' sessions. For instance, survey people and ask them how they're doing 6, 12, and/or 24 months after completing the training. Ask them how much their salary has increased/decreased over that time period. Maybe match that up with existing data for mainstream treatments. If there was more of an objective basis for this stuff working effectively, then I'd think of it much more favorably.

TL;DR: High-price mental game coaches generally do what they advertise and seem like good people, but I'd suggest trying everything else first.

We've offered to come on Elliot's (and other's) podcast and debate with him about the value of what he does and are always turned down. That alone says a lot.

Mason

It says something, i dont think it reveals the whole story.

Right... i've been thinking about reggie's 2 identical big mac analogy and i want to offer a variation.

You get offered 2 houses to buy. (We don't disclose the size of your bankroll.) 1 house in 1 area is $5k, the other is v similar in a completely different area is $100k. Q: what is the best buy?

My related thought is: it's not what you purchase and can hold in your hand today that is up for debate in relation to price and value. It's where the investment can take you!

The psychological aspect of poker is extremely difficult to tackle. Can someone teach someone to master the tilt/anxiety/depression involved in poker? I am not sure that's possible. You would have to have your life in a very orderly fashion ahead of time and be able to cope. Could you be taught to cope? If you have the necessary innate ability to do this. There are times in my life were I was handling any stress with the coolest and calmest energy. There have been others when the smallest thing triggers me. I've always related it a wire... you peel away enough of the coating the nerve is exposed so little is required to cause you to get burnt. You go at it enough you can short the person out ... or damage them permanently!

Like Matusow or many other players. I'd seriously check myself before going full time if you have bad anxiety/depression/performance issues that may also involve your game. Easy for a rec to go home and go back to his day job. A pro or a journeyman is stuck. I have heard all levels of poker player complain about how they hate poker though they feel stuck in it. Some are obese, some just burnt out and others have a love/hate relationship with it.

I assume the same feelings relate to jobs! I've had them. I guess being able to learn to treat poker like a job for a person who is a full timer would be necessary and I am not sure how you are taught to do that. It seems to be you can be helped by Coaching/Psychology work but to a point. You have to do the rest yourself or have it naturally? Rare for most people. Guess that's why so few do Poker full time!

Maybe you can explain wtf his analogy is supposed to illustrate, because I sure don't get the point.

(A Big Mac is a Big Mac is a Big Mac. THAT consistency is what Mickey D sells worldwide. the brand IS consistency. I'm sorry, but the analogy is a complete failure in trying to illustrate something about the variance of poker coaches , the complete antithesis of Big Mac consistency across the product. )