I've never written anything like "skill game vs. knowledge game." What I have written is that any game can be divided into two components. The (1) execution component and the (2) knowledge component. I've also said that in a game like tennis the execution component dominates and in a game like poker the knowledge component dominates, and that these differences makes the games very different.

Of course it's different. To be a top tennis player expect to spend thousands of hour just hitting backhands until it's automatic. This is almost all part of the execution component with the knowledge of how to execute a backhand being relatively small. Specifically, a good instructor can show you exactly how a backhand should be hit, and then you'll know. But it'll still take thousands of hours to become top notch at doing this. Poker is not like this.

One quick counter example. In tennis, when an opponent hits a 120+ mph serve at you, how much time do you have to return it. Compare that to poker where at times players will take a relatively long time to make a decision.

As a kid, I spent much more than just "hours hitting against the ball against the wall." You become able to return a quality serve, whether it's match point or not, threw thousands of hours of practice where something like this becomes automatic. Again, this is much different from tough poker situations.

Mason

I think this is true if you already have a half-way decent knowledge of poker. But I do believe that novice players can be fooled, and sometimes fooled for a long time.

Mason

*your stories was quite impressive* I started tennis old, 8. I beat the backboard(forever it seemed) till the adults would let me play since there were no children at the court really. I would destroy the women that played and any kids my age. After awhile I began to destroy the adults. By 13 I was 100 lbs dripping wet and could hit 100 MPH+ serves and return faster from spending every day at the court and playing a very high quality group of men. One of our coaches had played Stan Smith as far as I know and never took a game from him but took him to deuce sometimes.

In tennis you become intuitive and you don't much think about hands you hit. There are rare instances where you map out a point. Most of that is done before hand and in training. You train the muscles to react to the player type you'll be up against. You train the body and the mind... then go in and beat the hell out of the ball and win or lose depending on your skill and natural talent(plus training).

I agree with you entirely. Poker is a slow game of calculations and math ... Poker is becoming so math-like now I listen to a Streamer do nothing but calculate every position/stack depth/ranges/etc... It's not like it was in 2005.

I don't agree that it's fundamentally different. The ability to return a serve and the ability to make a quality poker decision are both generated by building up mental circuitry through extensive practice. In tennis, it's mental circuitry controlling muscle movements and mental circuitry allowing you to process information about the game. In poker, it's just the ability to strategically process in-game information.

Tennis is way more difficult to become good at than poker. But I don't see any meaningful distinction between them in terms of "knowledge" and "execution" components. Being a skilled player is almost all execution, whether it's executing a tennis shot, or executing a decision-making algorithm during a poker hand.

Executing a serve requires timing, perfect timing. You have to have perfect body mechanics on top of a level of physical fitness at a competitive level where most would be injured or are just incapable of doing it. At least repeatedly... I could serve 125 mph ball right now but probably after a bit I'd be injured!

Poker you can get excited, tilted, your heart can pound. You may have to sit there through grueling hours or days playing in an MTT or cash game. It stresses you and you may face opponents that continually read you or put you on a spot that tilts you a bit. You have to control all that. Is there any similarities, certainly I think. Though precisely, no.

One game is more math and calculated strategies and tactics and the other does require strategy and tactics. The execution is different. In Tennis you don't use math. It's all by feel really. I played my best in fact when I didn't think at all it just happened. I feel the ball and my mind is completely dead silent. I feel that in poker you talk constantly through every decision. Everything is little edges... You want to maximize value from your hands and minimize losses as well.

Hi Play:

I was almost 12 when I started playing tennis, but once I started I was at the tennis courts (Salvador Park in Coral Gables, FLA) almost everyday and also spent a lot of time hitting on the wall (and there are four of them to hit on).

A 100 mph+ serve at 13 is impressive.

Mason

Okay.

Mason

Sure, there’s a lot of coaches who might not help a player actually be good enough to become a winner. But you can also pay money for a golf coach who never won at the PGA. You can also buy real estate investing courses by people who don’t own real estate.

With poker, I think the results and success of the player can partially be validated by information online. And so it’s up to the consumer to decide if they think a coach is good enough to pay money towards.

I would prefer to not see unscrupulous practices in the poker industry, but that’s like asking Airball to be a nicer person. I’m not sure how you can enforce such a thing other than to rally people of power and influence to shape the industry in the right direction. And so if you have a way to make things better then I’m one of the many on your side.

I think there’s also a lot of people who want to share what they have learned and want to help people, and are hoping to make a living and start a business in exchange for their time. And that seems like a fair and decent mindset to have.

There’s a lot of people that I’ve learned from that weren’t necessarily high roller pro level status, but they opened my mind up to a new way of thinking or gave a nugget of new information. And that in itself is entertainment value. And how can you put a price on that or quantity it to a cost? It’s not easy to say what that’s worth and it varies based on the consumer.

I think the main issue is when people make false promises to sell their product by claiming that if you buy their course that you’ll instantly make a fortune and go pro. I could buy a 100 hour chess course from the best chess player in the world but I don’t think I’ll ever become a grandmaster from it. But it’ll help get me a little closer at least. And maybe I’ll enjoy it too.

Hello everybody! That discussion about yoga was quite amusing! I am amazed that people who present themselves as poker coaches do that. If I want to do yoga, I would go to a yoga instructor. I expect a poker coach to teach me poker, not yoga!

By the way, I myself was offered coaching by Greek players in Greece 2 weeks ago (somebody with the nickname 'dipoks', who I couldn't even find any info about online). The person who did hasn't even written a single book, or even made some videos with his plays. Yet, him and other players in Greece expect people to trust he would be a good coach! Speaking of poker books in Greek language, there are none in it, because for some reason no Greek player ever wrote one, not even a poker novel about somebody's experiences in poker, let alone a strategy book, and I doubt any Greek player will ever write a book about poker (Any experienced Greeks hear me? Write one plz!)! There are also hardly any videos about poker strategy in Greek language too. That leaves Greeks to need to be speaking good English in order to be able to study poker.

Regarding payment by coaches, another Greek who coaches at low cash stakes is offering what he calls CFP (Coaching For Profit), where he teaches low stakes cash for free, but takes a percent of the student's profits. I find that convenient.

Going back to the original question of the thread, why don't you guys create a thread listing scam coaches etc titled "Coach scam warning", where people who have been scammed can post there about that, or where people can warn others about coaches known to be scammers? That would allow somebody who searches for "coach scam" on Google to find this post and find out the truth.

At the same time, a thread or two about some top coaches, and where people who had great experiences with certain coaches can write about it (If there already isn't one), perhaps titled "Coaching experiences" / "Great coaching experiences", so that people interested in coaching can find out who the good coaches are there?

Mindset coaches are I think an interesting subset of scam/voodoo coaches. I think that it is certainly possible in that a mindset coach could just be spouting a lot of made-up rubbish (such as some cases higher up the thread) and for that coach's services to be +EV for the purchaser.

It's because the placebo effect is just such a strong psychological finding, with the placebo effect for example making up a good chunk of the effectiveness of antidepressants.

If you think that your mindset coach is helping you play better, than maybe they really are!

Mindset is very important for poker performance.

Unfortunately, 100% of all poker coaches suck!!!

Instead of buying coaching products from poker mindset coaches, poker players who want to improve their mental games should go outside poker to get help:

Instead of Tommy Angelo, go to Tich Naht Hahn, Wayne Dyer, Sakyong Mipham, Tao Te Ching, Ramana Maharishi, Sahdguru and other REAL (not fake like Tommy Angelo) Zen experts.

Instead of low level hypnotherapist Elliot Roe, go to the real sources of REAL hypnotherapy: Milton Erikson, Richard Bandler, Robert Dilts, Albert Ellis, and others.

Instead of learning "focus on what you can control" from fake poker stoics, go to Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, Victor Frankl and Massimo Pigliucci.

Instead of Tricia Cardner and Jared Tendler, go to Tim Gallwey, Joshua Waitzkin, Charles Garfield, James Loehr, Van Tharp, Daniel Goleman. Tendler's make friends with your emotions crap were from Leslie Cameron Bandler from a 1980s book Emotional Hostage.

All of the poker mindset coaches are third grade. Go to the people that they have stolen their ideas from. Yes I said it. All of the poker coaches mindset ideas are stolen fom others. Go to the real sources. Read their Kindle books for under 10 bucks or even free. Poker mindset coaches charging hundreds are SKAMM.

Hmmm, Marcus Aurelius, didn't he work at the "real Caesars Palace" ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsFZFHzf2d8

WAIT, didn't Annie Duke start a career teaching corporate heads about "the poker mindset" ? You might be just one tramp stamp away from poker greatness after all.

Yup. And it seems to be working for her.

The "poker mindset" she's teaching them is just EV orientation and the importance of not being results oriented. Stuff that poker players take for granted but seem to be groundbreaking in business. She's branded herself a "decision making expert" and shows as proof of her expertise her one variance win at the WSOP tournament of champions. Teaching people not to be results oriented yet showing a one time result as proof of expertise. LOL

Skammy Awards.

Do you feel Tony Robbins is a scam artist? He charges substantially more.

Am I the only person who sees the irony in Mason making like a quarter of the posts in this thread. He’s basically the exact person OP is describing. “I can’t beat poker, but I’m sure every other coach has it wrong. Just buy my book and you’ll see. “

Hi Reg:

What an interesting post.

I do want to point out that Jonathan Little is a co-author on the first two books by Cardner.

I would also include "poker performance coach" Jason Su on your list. In fact, I would be interested in your telling us where his stuff is derived from. Also, does anyone know what his course costs?

Mason

Correct, especially for a professional in a game like LHE where one is taking stupid beats incessantly.

I haven't read his book but based on some interviews Jason Su seems to be a very touchy feely Zen dude.

Jonathan Little co-authoring with Cardner seems to be a tactic that can compensate for Cardner saying, a long time ago, that she is not a poker expert but she can be your coach anyway. By having Little's name as co-author they can counter act consumer resistance to buying a poker book from an admitted non poker expert. Or somethin' like that.

Scientology too. What's your point?

It can be argued, and quite effectively I think, that the mental game is more important in non-physical competition than in physical sports. No amount of physical ability and natural coordination is going to help in poker or chess ... whereas it can absolutely carry the day in many sports. So instead of knowledge, natural physical talent and coordination, developed physical skills, and discipline ... in the non-physical competitions we have more just knowledge and discipline. Those two -- knowledge and discipline -- do not flow from each other automatically by any means. In some of these strictly mental games, discipline is more important than others, poker being one of those. We don't see a lot of chess players flying off the handle with obvious-to-them reckless and stupid play, but we see it every session nearly in poker.

One's A-game in tennis, sprinting, high-jumping, basketball, etc. ... is not nearly as separated from their D-game as it is in poker. In track and field, one doesn't go from the best to the worst player based on their discipline in the moment. In poker, they do.

Tell that to Alex Honnold.

Not understanding why it’s your job to protect people from free will legal activities

So you are arguing Scientology and motivational speakers should be outlawed or what?

No.

Just that the merchants of poker mindset stuff aren't near as good as their sources. And that going to those sources would be a better play.

Buyer beware.