Weird tournament final table deal...explain??? - Poker News

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Weird tournament final table deal...explain???

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01-23-2018 , 02:16 PM

BHDonkey

adept

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 756

I was thinking about heading down to Commerce to play in a couple LAPC tournies, and checked out the results (wanted to see field sizes, curious)...

I came across the following in event 10, PLO $350:

https://www.commercecasino.com/tourn...poker-classic/

I can't seem to copy and paste.

In a nutshell, the final three made this deal:

13K
5.3K
5.3K

The official payouts were:

11K
7.2K
5.2K

I've rounded the numbers - but none are off more than $60.

A note claims 1st was paid more so that the tournament could end early?

I'm at a loss to explain...I don't know how they calculate deals, but even if 2 and 3 just had a chip and a chair, wouldn't they get more???

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01-23-2018 , 02:26 PM

Kelvis

banned

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 8,737

Either this is wrong or both players are ****ing morons. Just ship it all in every hand if you don't have time.

edit: ok PLO so whatever but still; pot it at every point.

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01-23-2018 , 02:35 PM

EvilGreebo

banned

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3,526

Stupid deal by #3. REALLY stupid deal by #2. People do stupid **** when tired.

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01-23-2018 , 03:10 PM

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

Shot in the dark, but would the $5.3k payout fade having to get a tax document at the time of the payout?

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01-23-2018 , 03:11 PM

EvilGreebo

banned

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3,526

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkubus

Shot in the dark, but would the $5.3k payout fade having to get a tax document at the time of the payout?

I guess room dependent but... that would be a really weird line. MD live the line is $1k now apparently - at least for promo money.

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01-23-2018 , 03:16 PM

dhubermex

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,672

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkubus

Shot in the dark, but would the $5.3k payout fade having to get a tax document at the time of the payout?

According to this it would, but I'm not very familiar with this part of the industry so anyone feel free to correct if this is wrong.

https://finance.zacks.com/much-state...ings-3079.html

---

"The IRS has set minimum winnings for several games. At the time of publication, for bingo or slot machines the minimum is $1,200, for Keno the minimum is $1,500, and for poker or card games the minimum is $5,000. Each of these winnings is calculated by first deducting the initial buy-in. For example, if you won $5,500 but had to buy in a poker game for $1,000, then you would not be subject to the minimum."

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01-23-2018 , 03:27 PM

CohibaBehike

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 3,651

It wouldn't even make sense to fade a tax document, because the results are basically public and easily findable by the IRS.

Remember, just because one fades a tax document - that does not mean the tax payer does not have gross income on that money - it just means they have to voluntarily report it.

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01-23-2018 , 03:35 PM

NickMPK

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11,594

Yeah, this seems like a very misguided attempt at tax evasion. Pretty shady and unethical on the part of everyone involved.

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01-23-2018 , 03:39 PM

Loctus

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 11,217

Snitch

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01-23-2018 , 04:24 PM

#10

BHDonkey

adept

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 756

Wow...it would appear that it is an attempt not to have to file forms with the IRS.

While I'm not surprised the players wanted to do this, I'm shocked that Commerce would willingly participate in what essentially is a tax evasion scheme.

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01-23-2018 , 04:26 PM

#11

falldown

veteran

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,145

It's not tax evasion until you don't file that you won the money.

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01-23-2018 , 04:31 PM

#12

Kelvis

banned

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 8,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by falldown

It's not tax evasion until you don't file that you won the money.

In that case they just took an extremely ****ty deal. Think it's pretty obvious what is going to happen don't you?

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01-23-2018 , 04:32 PM

#13

falldown

veteran

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,145

I tried to follow your link, and looked at some other links on that page, but I can't find the payout you described. They did post the deal for the NLH event, so I wonder if they took it down.

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01-23-2018 , 04:33 PM

#14

MrFabulous

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 532

Can someone explain in more details?

I am not familiar with IRS. By doing this deal, the casino gave them the full amount of money? Otherwise they would withheld how much? 25%?

But anyway the deal makers have to put in the numbers in their tax forms at the end of the year? So it doesn´t matter if they pay now or at the end of year? Only that they have the money now in full?

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01-23-2018 , 04:37 PM

#15

falldown

veteran

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,145

Pretty much MrF. I believe if you win over 5K, you get 25% withheld and a tax form saying you made over 5K and they kept (.25)*(amount).

If you make less than 5K it is up to you to put it into your own tax forms. Conjecture here seems to be that these players will not.

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01-23-2018 , 04:43 PM

#16

AALegend

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,095

Quote:

Originally Posted by falldown

Most players in smaller cash games and smaller/mid-level tournaments are recreational players that lose money in poker most years (i.e. but how much did you lose?). Players like that do not want the extra paperwork/potential scrutiny either. So it makes sense for players like that to avoid the form.

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01-23-2018 , 04:47 PM

#17

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

The only reason I brought up the IRS angle is because I've been present at some low level donkaments where the talk of a split started as soon as the final table was set and this was invariably the reason cited.

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01-23-2018 , 05:12 PM

#18

PeteBlow

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 14,618

There's also the possibility that the player who took 1st place money was from a tax treaty country like the UK.
2nd and 3rd take an amount that doesn't require holding and the Brit takes the rest.
They could then have done a secondary deal where the first place guy then hands them some cash to make up the real deal amounts.

I'm surprised this isn't done more often, but I suppose there's a big trust issue that the 1st place guy doesn't do a runner

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01-23-2018 , 06:04 PM

#19

HiThereGuy

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 71

obviously avoiding getting IRS'd

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01-23-2018 , 06:10 PM

#20

BHDonkey

adept

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 756

Quote:

Originally Posted by falldown

I tried to follow your link, and looked at some other links on that page, but I can't find the payout you described. They did post the deal for the NLH event, so I wonder if they took it down.

Still there...I was able to do a little copy and paste:

*Final 3 players agreed to pay 1st place more than 1st was slated to pay in order for the tournament to end.
Original payouts were: 1st $11,055 2nd $7,360 3rd $5,260

The wording is so bizarre...I mean, have you ever heard of a deal where the winner gets MORE than what he would have had he actually won??? Let's see...you're going to pay me more money so I can be guaranteed a win and get to go to sleep earlier?

???????

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01-23-2018 , 06:20 PM

#21

PTLou

JellyBean

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,516

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiThereGuy

obviously avoiding getting IRS'd

refer to above if anyone still has questions about why they chopped like that.

Deducting the $350 entry fee, 2nd each 3rd each had win of $4,950, with no W2-G filed by Casino.

Starting at $5,000 casino would have filed W2-G.

Though I'm not convinced players did anything illegal or even unethical.

.

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01-23-2018 , 06:33 PM

#22

BHDonkey

adept

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 756

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTLou

Illegal...not unless they don't report this on their taxes.

Unethical...that depends on how you feel about Uncle Sam...POTUS thinks it is "smart" to not pay taxes, so I guess they're in the clear!

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01-23-2018 , 07:39 PM

#23

Stu Ungar

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,995

Final-tabled a tournament last month, we offered the big chip leader $5,000 and us others would split the rest of the prize pool but he said no to that but would agree to do it for $4,900.

Tournament buy in was $100, so I guess he could have actually taken $5,099 if he was up to snuff on taxes..

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01-23-2018 , 07:44 PM

#24

PTLou

JellyBean

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,516

As BH mentioned... they are "up to snuff" on taxes up until the point they dont claim it on that years tax filing.

$5000 is just the threshold that casino has to report on W2G

tax liability for gambling winnings starts at about $1, give or take $1

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01-23-2018 , 07:50 PM

#25

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,066

Hi Everyone:

Years ago, over 20, there use to be a formula for dividing up the money at the end of a tournament that was commonly used. It went something like this. If there were three people left.

1. Everyone would get third place money.

2. The rest of the money would be divided up according to the percentage of chips that each player had.

Of course, using this formula, it would occasionally be possible for first place to get more money than what first place would pay.

I wonder if this is what happened here.

Best wishes,
Mason

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