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Old 05-29-2011, 12:28 PM   #26
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

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Originally Posted by TheEngineer View Post

I feel so dirty now.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:30 PM   #27
Rich Muny
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

The Facebook posts are really gaining traction. I hope we'll all visit the relevant pages and make ourselves heard:
  • The House Financial Services Committee's Facebook page is here.
  • Let's get some posts on the House Committee on Energy and Commerce page (here)
  • The Dept. of Justice's page is here.
  • Senators' FB pages: Senator Facebook Listing
  • We need lots of posts on the issue of poker and lots of "liking" of pro-poker comments.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:55 PM   #28
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Fact: PPA got a large majority of their 'funding' from the offshore sites like FTP and PS.

Fact: While They claim to be for the poker players but in reality their actions speak more to being shills to their backers (the sites_ with no accountablity against the offshore sites

Fact: The truth is the PPA only recently decided to try and focus on the players in this country post Black Friday because they lost their cash cow in the sites. Most PPA members arent paid members and now the PPA needs players funds to support their activites but you dont see the PPA coming out and hammering the sites for not paying (cant bite the hand that fed them in the past).

Fact: Reality is the PPA is nothing but an impotent organization which after years has proven to be ineffective for poker players and being the voice of poker players. The should change their name to the OPPA since they only seem to be focused with online poker players and even that is questionable.
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Old 05-29-2011, 02:43 PM   #29
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Nice to see this thread in NVG. Of course there will be more useless arguing here, but I expect it to be positive overall.

The facebook stuff has been going great. Now that there is a thread here, I would love to see a couple of hundred "likes" for pro-poker posts. Take a few minutes to do this stuff, then a few more minutes to tell all your friends.
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Old 05-29-2011, 03:20 PM   #30
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Not a PPA spokesman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTPJesus View Post
Fact: PPA got a large majority of their 'funding' from the offshore sites like FTP and PS..
Players only donated about 50k to the PPA last year. That would only be enough to hire 1 low tier lobbyist. Where else would they have got their funding? Casinos only recently started fighting for legislation. Yahoo, Facebook, and many others that stand to make a lot of money didn't contribute, as a mater of fact they opposed us. FoF also scared a lot of people away.

Quote:
Fact: While They claim to be for the poker players but in reality their actions speak more to being shills to their backers (the sites_ with no accountablity against the offshore sites.
PPA supported Reid 1/2 that banned these sites for a minimum of 3 years. That in itself disproves this.

Quote:
Fact: The truth is the PPA only recently decided to try and focus on the players in this country post Black Friday because they lost their cash cow in the sites. .
Before black friday, helping the sites meant helping the player, even though the PPA never focused on offshore operators as you claim. The sites offered what the player wanted. The PPA lobbied to allow players to play, and since the only people not opposing us were the sites, obviously the players and the poker sites interests we aligned. PPA supported Reid 1/2 and would snap call a interstate bill that bans PS/FTP forever both now and in the past.

Quote:
Most PPA members arent paid members and now the PPA needs players funds to support their activites.
PPA needs way more then what players have given. The PPA wouldn't exist if it only operated on player donations.

Quote:
but you dont see the PPA coming out and hammering the sites for not paying (cant bite the hand that fed them in the past). .
PPA publicly called the poker sites to return funds. What would you like a small US, consisting of mainly volunteers, lobbying firm to do about companies that do business in Antigua? An agreement was reached, everything is on the poker sites to return funds.

Quote:
Fact: Reality is the PPA is nothing but an impotent organization which after years has proven to be ineffective for poker players and being the voice of poker players. The should change their name to the OPPA since they only seem to be focused with online poker players and even that is questionable.
The PPA is a very small lobbying organization. It would be impossible them them to push anything through without help from an organization like the AGA. Even with all of the positive support from these gambling groups, loss of other companies lobbying against us like the NFL, and the public outburst over this issue that resulted in nearly 100k emails(thanks to the PPA), this is still an uphill battle.

Last edited by LastLife; 05-29-2011 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 03:30 PM   #31
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

I'm glad to see something get organized. I'm happy to spend a few moments clicking some buttons and splashing myself all over that facebook wall (finally found a use for that thing). The Financial Committee's page is all poker comments. Great to see. While this kind of thing may not show immediately results, 2+2 gives us a ready-made community that can be mobilized quickly to make a lot of noise. Lets do more of this!
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Old 05-29-2011, 03:33 PM   #32
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTPJesus View Post
Fact: PPA got a large majority of their 'funding' from the offshore sites like FTP and PS.

Fact: While They claim to be for the poker players but in reality their actions speak more to being shills to their backers (the sites_ with no accountablity against the offshore sites

Fact: The truth is the PPA only recently decided to try and focus on the players in this country post Black Friday because they lost their cash cow in the sites. Most PPA members arent paid members and now the PPA needs players funds to support their activites but you dont see the PPA coming out and hammering the sites for not paying (cant bite the hand that fed them in the past).

Fact: Reality is the PPA is nothing but an impotent organization which after years has proven to be ineffective for poker players and being the voice of poker players. The should change their name to the OPPA since they only seem to be focused with online poker players and even that is questionable.
Links? Proof of any kind?


If not then stfu.

Last edited by demon102; 05-29-2011 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:46 PM   #33
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

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Originally Posted by demon102 View Post
Links? Proof of any kind?


If not then stfu.
+1
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:11 PM   #34
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Quote:
Originally Posted by evagaba View Post
Just spent about 30 minutes emailing and posting. Thanks for starting this OP.

Imo, you would get a better response if you did this during the work week and not a holiday weekend.
Proof that it's good idea to spread this across all the subforums, and not just the legislation forum. I wish more people read the legislation forum. This has been going for a while now. Welcome to the fight! If everyone on 2+2 got their hands dirty we would be a lot more influential.
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:42 PM   #35
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

I just posted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by My post on the Energy and Commerce FB wall
I don't need big government to seek to ban online poker and I definitely don't need the watchful eye of the government on my activities inside my own home.

I met with my Congressman's staff earlier this week to ask for his support the upcoming bill by Rep. Barton licensing online poker. I ask that the entire committee support this important legislation.

Many other poker players are ensuring that they are being heard as well. We care, and we vote.
I hope we'll all post on these Facebook walls to let our lawmakers know where we stand. If you like the post I made, please "like" it at http://www.facebook.com/energyandcom...50261688056311. Thanks!
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Old 05-30-2011, 10:45 AM   #36
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Tomorrow's action plan will be to start contacting mainstream media to ask them to cover this issue in more depth.
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Old 05-30-2011, 11:20 AM   #37
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

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Originally Posted by TheEngineer View Post
Tomorrow's action plan will be to start contacting mainstream media to ask them to cover this issue in more depth.
Nice. It would be awesome to get some big time news stories on this.
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:49 PM   #38
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer View Post
The Facebook posts are really gaining traction. I hope we'll all visit the relevant pages and make ourselves heard:
  • The House Financial Services Committee's Facebook page is here.
  • Let's get some posts on the House Committee on Energy and Commerce page (here)
  • The Dept. of Justice's page is here.
  • Senators' FB pages: Senator Facebook Listing
  • We need lots of posts on the issue of poker and lots of "liking" of pro-poker comments.

do this guys! literally takes like 30 secs
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:41 PM   #39
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKongGrinder View Post
Proof that it's good idea to spread this across all the subforums, and not just the legislation forum. I wish more people read the legislation forum. This has been going for a while now. Welcome to the fight! If everyone on 2+2 got their hands dirty we would be a lot more influential.
We are slowly but surely moving in that direction.

I just re-sent all of the letters and will be making more phone calls tomorrow.
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Old 05-30-2011, 10:22 PM   #40
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Clicking the Like button on Bacchus's page so I could make comments made me feel very dirty.
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Old 05-30-2011, 11:30 PM   #41
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

This thread warms my heart, go forward my American cuzzies!!
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:07 AM   #42
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Weekend of May 28th (see post #1 for today's plan)

Fight for Poker Rights: Tuesday, May 31st:

Let's start contacting mainstream media companies to tell them to increase their coverage of our important issue. Let's start with Fox News and go from there. Contact info:
Recurring actions we can take:
  • Let's continue to own a lot of Facebook pages (senators, Congressmen, Congressional committees, etc.):
    • The House Financial Services Committee's Facebook page is here.
    • Let's get some posts on the House Committee on Energy and Commerce page (here)
    • The Dept. of Justice's page is here.
    • Senators' FB pages: Senator Facebook Listing
    • We need lots of posts on the issue of poker and lots of "liking" of pro-poker comments.
Thanks!
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:49 AM   #43
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Tuesday, May 31st (see post #1 for today's plan)

https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/hr1174

also voting on this page and writing a quick personal story might help.. please pass onto other pages..
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:19 PM   #44
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Tuesday, May 31st (see post #1 for today's plan)

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?ui...35&topic=63062
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:05 PM   #45
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Tuesday, May 31st (see post #1 for today's plan)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer View Post
Fight for Poker Rights: Tuesday, May 31st:

Let's start contacting mainstream media companies to tell them to increase their coverage of our important issue. Let's start with Fox News and go from there. Contact info:
Just wrote messages to all these, plus about ten of the individual news programs. Many of my emails to the ind. shows bounced because their inboxes are full. -_-
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:43 AM   #46
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Wednesday, June 1st (see post #1 for today's plan)

Fight for Poker Rights: Wednesday, June 1st:

Let's continue contacting mainstream media companies to tell them to increase their coverage of our important issue. Let's go with CNN for today. Contact info:
Recurring actions we can take:
  • Let's continue to own a lot of Facebook pages (senators, Congressmen, Congressional committees, etc.):
    • The House Financial Services Committee's Facebook page is here.
    • Let's get some posts on the House Committee on Energy and Commerce page (here)
    • The Dept. of Justice's page is here.
    • Senators' FB pages: Senator Facebook Listing
    • We need lots of posts on the issue of poker and lots of "liking" of pro-poker comments.
Thanks!
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:21 PM   #47
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Wednesday, June 1st (see post #1 for today's plan)

Keep the pressure on.
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:52 PM   #48
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Wednesday, June 1st (see post #1 for today's plan)

I guess I'll just quote this here then because it was deemed a quality enough of a view to be an OP in NVG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mersenneary View Post
To preface, I'm not a PPA hater. One thing that the PPA has actually done well about is begging people to get involved to help shape the organization's actions. Don't like a statement the PPA has put out? TheEngineer has been pleading for you to help devise language you are satisfied with. In that line, I thought I'd use what knowledge I have to help out. And, since Mason Malmuth is my personal hero, I decided to post it in NVG rather than just PM someone.

The situation: The PPA has been running a daily "take action" campaign. In my view, this has been pretty ineffective at galvanizing the poker community and getting a lot of people involved. 2+2 is a site that, by some estimates, gets 4 million page views a day and 400,000 visits. It's a site with users who have done some pretty incredible things, from leading a mob of internet detectives to uncover the superuser scandals, to donating tens of thousands to charity out of love for Barry Greenstein and donkaments. It's a userbase that has a great deal of power when it's motivated effectively. Despite this, the response to the PPA's initiatives have largely been tepid and cynical, and I don't think this initiative has really had much of an impact so far.

The problems:

1. The goals seem unattainable for one person.

The PPA's main longterm goal is to make internet poker legal, free, and safe in America. To accomplish this, the suggestion is that we should "like" comments on facebook and send a "man shakes fist at cloud" email to CNN. These actions have effects, but when that's the goal we're all fighting for, whether I make a facebook post or not or send an email really doesn't matter. It doesn't make any measurable progress to any measurable goal that the PPA has set, and that drives apathy.

2. Diffusion of responsibility runs rampant.

Given this, everybody assumes that others will help out, that their contributions don't matter in the grand scheme of things, and they don't make them. Individuals are actually being Game Theory Optimal in not participating, but as a group, we all do a lot worse with a group of listless GTO participants.

3. There is currently little to no personal or social benefit for taking action.

The first two problems exist in many social situations. One of them is voting. Each vote is unlikely to make any significant progress to winning the presidential election for a candidate, and it's again "rational" to sit out. What makes half of voters get to the polls anyway is that they have some greater personal or social reason to do so, even though their individual vote doesn't really matter.

4. The PPA's name is toxic right now.

Whether you like it or not and think it's fair or not, the PPA has come to be associated with ineffective, useless leadership, which kills people's desire to help out in a PPA campaign. It even contributes to the previous item - if you tell a bunch of liberals that you're helping out with the democratic party to get Obama re-elected, most of them will think that's pretty cool, and you get some social benefit from it. If you tell a bunch of poker players that you're helping out with the PPA to make internet poker legal, most of them will think that you're a moron who isn't having any effect.

The solutions:

1. Make smaller sub-goals that are more tangible and achievable.

There should be daily and/or weekly goals that can be measured. For the week of June 6th through June 12th, for example, make a goal that 500 2+2 users will sign-on to a list of people who have sent CNN a message asking them to increase their coverage of poker. Maybe that number should be higher or lower, I'm not sure, whatever seems appropriate based on current action levels. The point is that being one person who writes a letter to CNN, that gets poker more coverage, that gets politicians to pass a poker bill, is a daunting and probably useless thing to try, as an individual. But being one person who is part of 500 who helped make the group reach their goal? That makes people feel like they've actually done something. And if the participation increases significantly because of it, than it does mean they actually will have done something. When we get 500, we can go for 750, then 1000, then 1500, with new media targets, and so on. Get people feel like we're accomplishing something and the movement is growing stronger, not just that we're all taking shots in the dark that random actions may or may not be helping and may or may not be growing in significance.

2. Appeal to personal and social benefit.

Get some poker celebrities to sign onto the lists. If Tom Dwan posts "45. durrrr", I guarantee numbers 46-55 are going to get posted pretty damn quickly. People get excited when they see users they respect helping out and being another one of the group. It also creates a more compelling call to action - if you're on this list and you sent your email to CNN/blasted Spencer Bachus on Facebook today, you've helped. If you're not, why aren't you? There's none of that right now. Allowing people to more easily and recognizably go on record supporting the fight will increase the benefit from doing so.

The reason why most people vote, besides not thinking about the mathematics of the utility calculation of waiting in line vs the one whatever chance that their vote changes the presidency, is that they feel compelled by duty to "do their part", and there are social benefits to saying that they went through the effort and did it. "Do your part" should continue to be a theme of the PPA going forward to help avoid diffusion of responsibility and the feeling that fighting for poker rights is useless. So what if I can't make the libertarians more powerful with one vote? I can still do my part.

3. This should be a 2+2 userbase action that the PPA organization helps out with, not a PPA organization action that the 2+2 userbase helps out with.

This is going to require PPA swallowing their pride, but it's completely necessary. When Scott Brown ran for senate in MA, he avoided talking about his party, which is viewed unfavorably in that state. The PPA is viewed unfavorably on these forums, and this can't be the PPA's project. The announcement says "PPA Daily Fight for Poker Rights" - I know this was probably to make it clear that this wasn't a 2+2 project, only a PPA project that the 2+2 is giving a microphone to, but having the word "PPA" in there actually kills off a ton of interest from a lot of people in this forum.

Get 2+2ers to help out in running the operation on this forum (no, I'm not volunteering for that). Don't call it a PPA fight - let 2+2 users run the show, and give help when appropriate using the resources that the PPA has. The fact of the matter is that few people is energized to help TheEngineer out with a take action project, whether or not that's rational or fair. If the guys at Subject: Poker, for example, were willing to help out with an advocacy role, that would produce much different results than PPABryan telling me what to think about Phil Ivey. Imagine, for example, if NoahSD were leading the call for action - I'd slather my ice cream with mashed potatoes if that guy told me it was the right thing to do.

Obviously, there are a lot of problems with the current fight for poker rights, and I've focused on a small segment of them - the ones that have to do with PPA messaging/approach to getting people interested in helping out. Add your own thoughts about whether my recommendations are good, how they should be tweaked/abandoned, and what else can be done to help out.

TL;DR Cliffnotes: Just read everything in italics.
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:22 PM   #49
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Wednesday, June 1st (see post #1 for today's plan)

Uuuugh, while I may agree with some of the stuff in that quote I think that should be posted in the PPA forum as its own thread. Working on all of that could be very beneficial but just reading that took the wind out of my sails. It just doesnt seem to be the place for this when we want only 1 focus itt and that is going forth with each days action plan.



Im gonna go regroup now cuz dog damn thats downer.
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:31 PM   #50
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Re: Fight for Poker Rights: Wednesday, June 1st (see post #1 for today's plan)

I was told this is the place to put it if I want to talk about it in NVG, I agree a new thread would be better, it may be moved back here after the Ivey dramabombs die down.

This shouldn't take the wind out of your sails, though. The fact that we're already doing a lot AND have a path so that we're doing a lot more should be a very energizing thought, rather than just feeling stagnant about what we're accomplishing.
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