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Old 04-23-2015, 06:32 AM   #101
Seven7s
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I guess you haven't been keeping up with the latest poker software developments. If you input starting ranges into apps like GTORB, PioSolver or 'Simple PostFlop', and provide some standard bet-sizes and actions, solutions that are incredibly close to the Nash Equilibrium are provided.
Fortunately, there are around 22,000 possible flops, so it's quite hard for a human to remember every solution perfectly, which means your opponents will still make many mistakes. But for computers that have already computed the solutions, recalling them is trivial. Ask Siri.
If that were true you wouldn't post that as it would obviously scare away bad regs/fish right? Or are you just a moron? I know it's the latter, as most people are idiots.
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:05 AM   #102
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Fortunately, there are around 22,000 possible flops
There are only 1755 strategically different flops.
I think it's 2-3 years tops till a program on a laptop is unbeatable by any human. Might take 4 on an iPhone.
What is fortunate though is that multiplayer games won't be solved anytime soon (if ever) and even if they are Nash equilibrium isn't that important there (because one player doing something silly ruins it for everybody else and you may end up playing something hugely -EV when following the equilibrium which is not the case in HU games).
From my perspective it's a good shot for WCG to be remembered as a guy who has beaten this huge supercomputer... won't be as glorious to be steamrolled by middle tier laptop in near future.
It happened in chess before: Kasparov beat Deep Blue in their first match just to lose in somewhat controversial circumstances in 2nd one. These days Deep Blue would lose vs top program on 2 years old smart phone. Poker is even worse for humans than chess it's just that poker programming is very undeveloped area compared to chess.

Last edited by punter11235; 04-23-2015 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 04-23-2015, 09:09 AM   #103
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

If the bot loses, it's a publicity stunt.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:51 PM   #104
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

really interesting. excited to see how close the bot comes
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Old 04-23-2015, 03:23 PM   #105
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by LoneUltralisk View Post
If the bot loses, it's a publicity stunt.
And if bot wins, poker is dead


then you have jungle being all cryptic

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i heard eskobar has tatoos

fees and crew do not tho
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Old 04-23-2015, 04:33 PM   #106
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Not quite. I'm a student who doesn't have much time for poker with relatively high outgoings for someone in my position.

Let's put it this way. IIRC one of the selling points for Snowie a couple of years ago was that it competed decently well with jungleman who beat it over a small sample but struggled. Snowie has gotten better since then, but the bots from the competition - especially Tartanian - would still completely obliterate it.

Note: because I didn't get to read the original article before it was taken offline and I'm going off what was said in this thread, I could be wrong about my assumption that this is the best NLHU bot in the world. If it's just some marketing ploy for a Snowie competitor then yes, I think the smart money's on the humans.
find some $$, we can bet whatever u like, I'll lay odds.
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Old 04-23-2015, 04:33 PM   #107
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by FlapJacks316 View Post
And if bot wins, poker is dead


then you have jungle being all cryptic
Why is poker dead? The last time I checked, a bot can't play live poker.
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:10 PM   #108
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

who would've thought this thread would turn into a discussion on "how long before bots kill poker."

i never would've guessed.
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:14 PM   #109
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by good2cu View Post
HU NL bots in their current come close to beating .50$/$1 HU Reg, let alone some of the best HU Players in the world.

Will revisit in 5 years .

I don't disagree with you that hu NLHE bot's are currently weak. From what I have seen they suck. But a solid HU .5/1 reg currently grinding today's games who takes on all comers including regs at his stake is actually pretty solid these days. I wouldn't be surprised if he only lost at a small rate to u G2CU if u just play live ring games these last 5 years. Not that I know what ur up to

I'm more concerned at the moment with unnamed Nash computational software that solves for equilibrium play in any given spot if given some simple variable inputs such as preflop action. If the software was fast enough to do real time calcs on devices like cell phones it would be over before GTO bots even got to it.
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:27 PM   #110
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I guess you haven't been keeping up with the latest poker software developments. If you input starting ranges into apps like GTORB, PioSolver or 'Simple PostFlop', and provide some standard bet-sizes and actions, solutions that are incredibly close to the Nash Equilibrium are provided.
Fortunately, there are around 22,000 possible flops, so it's quite hard for a human to remember every solution perfectly, which means your opponents will still make many mistakes. But for computers that have already computed the solutions, recalling them is trivial. Ask Siri.
Hey bro do us all a favor and please don't slap this info all over public forums. Most people that play poker don't even know this stuff exists yet and I'd prefer to keep it that way as long as possible.
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:46 PM   #111
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by tenderloinig View Post
Hey bro do us all a favor and please don't slap this info all over public forums. Most people that play poker don't even know this stuff exists yet and I'd prefer to keep it that way as long as possible.
people who don't know that stuff exists won't suddenly turn into crushers by reading about it on nvg

keep trying to keep things from progress and information from filtering out. Book burning works real well in 2015
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Old 04-23-2015, 08:00 PM   #112
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by BitchiBee View Post
people who don't know that stuff exists won't suddenly turn into crushers by reading about it on nvg

keep trying to keep things from progress and information from filtering out. Book burning works real well in 2015
The problem isn't people turning into crushers. If this becomes super popular any curious fish can plug in the hand he got stacked on in the casino that night into the program and see how to play it perfectly vs whatever he did. At least with training sites/videos people have to put in some time and focus and try to take something away from what they've seen and apply it to their game. Nothing yet has been able to definitively tell people, rec or pro, exactly how to play a given hand. Just seems too powerful to me. Make the program cost 10k. Sure things are going to advance one way or another but that speed is variable.

Wouldn't be surprised if this was the exact software WCG and his crew helped develop/had first dibs on that allowed them to develop their theoretical game so far beyond everyone else. I'm sure they had studied all the common spots with this tool before I knew it existed. It is the exact software I and many others speculated was being used back during the wcg v sauce match.
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Old 04-23-2015, 08:32 PM   #113
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by tenderloinig View Post
The problem isn't people turning into crushers. If this becomes super popular any curious fish can plug in the hand he got stacked on in the casino that night into the program and see how to play it perfectly vs whatever he did. At least with training sites/videos people have to put in some time and focus and try to take something away from what they've seen and apply it to their game. Nothing yet has been able to definitively tell people, rec or pro, exactly how to play a given hand. Just seems too powerful to me. Make the program cost 10k. Sure things are going to advance one way or another but that speed is variable.

Wouldn't be surprised if this was the exact software WCG and his crew helped develop/had first dibs on that allowed them to develop their theoretical game so far beyond everyone else. I'm sure they had studied all the common spots with this tool before I knew it existed. It is the exact software I and many others speculated was being used back during the wcg v sauce match.
You and many others speculated, so you must be right! Lol....but did you actually read the sites linked in detail?

The GTO solution takes 5minutes to calculate for every single spot. It is impossible for WCG to have been using this type of software during the wcg vs sauce match.

Occam's razor states the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The simplest explanation is WCG intuitively knew the closer to GTO spot better in his head than sauce did and that is why he was successful in that match.

You're basically suggesting WCG had access to a university-level supercomputer, and had them let him use it to run software to approximate a GTO solution for a high stakes HU poker match. A scheme which might not even have worked and could cost millions.
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Old 04-24-2015, 02:34 AM   #114
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

Tenderloinig just did 100x more to advertise these solvers than artymcfly. Not that it matters much anyways.
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Old 04-24-2015, 04:22 AM   #115
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

I hate those bots so much. They will eventually destroy the game. And for what? So that few computer geeks could feel accomplished? If they just care for AI development in general, they could focus their programming on more productive cause.

As for top players taking part in the challenge, I don't like this at all. It could be cool for them, they will get all the glory but this is supporting the cause of eventual collapse of the game. These bots and programs like gtorb will replace all of the fun of figuring out the game on ur own with boring brute-force process happening over triliards of hands. This is terrible and it needs to be shown as such,instead of making show out of it.
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Old 04-24-2015, 06:00 AM   #116
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by MyPoorLil5850s View Post
You and many others speculated, so you must be right! Lol....but did you actually read the sites linked in detail?

The GTO solution takes 5minutes to calculate for every single spot. It is impossible for WCG to have been using this type of software during the wcg vs sauce match.

Occam's razor states the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The simplest explanation is WCG intuitively knew the closer to GTO spot better in his head than sauce did and that is why he was successful in that match.

You're basically suggesting WCG had access to a university-level supercomputer, and had them let him use it to run software to approximate a GTO solution for a high stakes HU poker match. A scheme which might not even have worked and could cost millions.
Where do you get 5 minutes for every spot? As long as you estimate a range and abstract bet sizings, you can get a GTO approximation in about 2 seconds for any spot. In fact, there are already free programs out there that'll tell you the perfect play with your range vs. an opponents range in every spot, and they can calculate the equilibrium extremely quickly on a standard home computer.

Perhaps starting from estimating GTO pre ranges then working through flop,turn,river play takes longer, but I don't think it will be long before fish can download an iPhone app that teaches them perfect play.
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Old 04-24-2015, 06:54 AM   #117
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Oh man. Thanks for this.

https://instagram.com/p/1UJJEWycD0/?...=esko_bangbang

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Old 04-24-2015, 06:56 AM   #118
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/edu...s/201504240169
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Old 04-24-2015, 07:44 AM   #119
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

Can we rail the match somewhere? If not how are results/hands going to be posted, daily or at the end of challange.
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Old 04-24-2015, 07:56 AM   #120
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

Would like to bet $50 on the bot for a sweat.
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Old 04-24-2015, 08:57 AM   #121
redfin
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I guess you haven't been keeping up with the latest poker software developments. If you input starting ranges into apps like GTORB, PioSolver or 'Simple PostFlop', and provide some standard bet-sizes and actions, solutions that are incredibly close to the Nash Equilibrium are provided.
Fortunately, there are around 22,000 possible flops, so it's quite hard for a human to remember every solution perfectly, which means your opponents will still make many mistakes. But for computers that have already computed the solutions, recalling them is trivial. Ask Siri.
Interesting. Pretty sure will tipton has cut down the 22,000 flops down to a much smaller number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaqh
There are a couple reasons we might want to choose a relatively small subset of flops that somehow accurately represents the full set:
-We want to reduce the size of a decision tree describing some model poker game
-We want to study in depth how players' ranges interact, etc. on a representative subset boards

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...-game-1408420/
In addition the new CR-EV beta has an 'equilibrium tool'. It will give you the optimal frequencies for how to play your range once you set up the action and bet sizes. It's free for now (assuming u purchased cr-ev) but may not be in the future. I've heard of pio solver, but not sure how it is different from the above? Maybe the developer, punter, can explain given that he posted itt.

There is also ipython (tipton) which basically helps you create ur own programming software and I know some of top players have done. I think if you learned programming (or hire a good programmer) + studied right poker math you be competing at a high level after a few months of rigorous study.
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Old 04-24-2015, 09:20 AM   #122
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by BertieWooster View Post
Would like to bet $50 on the bot for a sweat.
im assuming 1:1? ill pm you when i get home
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Old 04-24-2015, 09:38 AM   #123
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by thirty___three View Post
Cool.
It's nice to see some more info coming out. Seems that the CMU team are going with the "AI can be used to benefit society" angle.

The challenge will be over 80,000 hands.

Claudico is Latin for "limp".
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Old 04-24-2015, 09:48 AM   #124
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

Props for everyone included to make it as serious a format.
80k hands is very serious sample, even if not for the final result then at least to see a lot of things/patterns.
I am hoping the humans win but it will be exciting to watch.

I wonder if Claudico programmers are willing to provide some luck adjusted score after the match. They are afterall aware of all the ranges going to showdown so it's possible to eliminate some variance in the calculations.
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Old 04-24-2015, 10:04 AM   #125
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Re: WCGRider and Dong Kim to play against a new HU bot

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The four competitors — including the world’s No. 1-ranked player, Doug Polk — will compete for their share of a $100,000 pot of winnings funded by the casino and fellow sponsor Microsoft.

So Jungleman what ya gonna do about this?
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