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Old 05-04-2015, 05:04 PM   #1101
theskillzdatklls
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by vrael111 View Post
^ i wouldnt exactly call him normal player, since polk said all of them are in top 10

Btw, anyone knows how much is each player up/down vs the bot? Thanks
http://www.twitch.tv/claudico_extra
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Old 05-04-2015, 05:15 PM   #1102
tenderloinig
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Sam I have a question for you, I am about halfway through the paper you posted. Very interesting and well written.

When Claudico tanks on the river, Is this your endgame solver recalculating the decision?

What sets Claudico apart it seems is the bots ability to adjust its play on the fly via the endgame solver and also you say it has finer grained abstractions than other bots already because rather than assume uniform random distributions it is breaking down hand ranges as it plays reading betsizes etc. My question then is would Claudico be less effective on a slower computer, say a normal laptop. Does it need a bunch of cores to use the endgame solver?
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Old 05-04-2015, 05:22 PM   #1103
Sam Ganzfried
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by tenderloinig View Post
Sam I have a question for you, I am about halfway through the paper you posted. Very interesting and well written.

When Claudico tanks on the river, Is this your endgame solver recalculating the decision?

What sets Claudico apart it seems is the bots ability to adjust its play on the fly via the endgame solver and also you say it has finer grained abstractions than other bots already because rather than assume uniform random distributions it is breaking down hand ranges as it plays reading betsizes etc. My question then is would Claudico be less effective on a slower computer, say a normal laptop. Does it need a bunch of cores to use the endgame solver?
Not gonna comment on the approach until after the competition concludes.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:37 PM   #1104
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

If Bjorn beats Doug vs. Claudico.......WE NEED A CHALLENGE TO SET THINGS STRAIGHT because it would put the assertion that Doug is the world's best HUNL player in jeopardy. No?
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:40 PM   #1105
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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If Bjorn beats Doug vs. Claudico.......WE NEED A CHALLENGE TO SET THINGS STRAIGHT because it would put the assertion that Doug is the world's best HUNL player in jeopardy. No?
No.
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:01 PM   #1106
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

i vote yes.
bjorn is clearly making an aggressive move towards doug.
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:59 AM   #1107
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by Sam Ganzfried View Post
Might be helpful to think of the following. Every imperfect-information extensive-form game/Bayesian game/etc. can be converted to a matrix game. E.g., http://www.sfu.ca/~haiyunc/notes/Der...rm%20Games.pdf.

I assume you accept that a Nash equilibrium exists in matrix (aka normal-form) games, by Nash's theorem. So one way to see that an NE exists in HUNL is that it can be represented as an extensive-form game, which could be converted to an equivalent normal-form game, which contains an NE. This conversion from EFG to NFG results in a huge game (the NFG has exponential size in terms of the number of states in the EFG representation), which is why we don't want to do this conversion in practice and want to run algorithms on the EFG representation. But we could do this conversion at least in theory, and the NE of the corresponding NFG would correspond directly to the NE of the equivalent EFG.

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Old 05-05-2015, 01:31 AM   #1108
Sam Ganzfried
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by WhiskyCoke View Post
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sam i'd love a few sentences on why you think a NE might exist for nlhe. formal explanations are fine. thanks
.
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:03 AM   #1109
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Quoting this so there are three of them in a row.
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Old 05-05-2015, 03:36 AM   #1110
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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subbed
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Old 05-05-2015, 03:42 AM   #1111
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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PM me your algo for computing best response/exploitabillity in imperfect-recall games/abstractions and maybe we can work something out
Poker is a perfect recall game and that you might use imperfect recall abstraction to approximation NE for that doesn't matter. As long as you can play the game you can calculate max exploit. Just travel the tree in depth first fashion, go to every leaf (you can do that if you can play the game), calculate stuff there (pot equity vs whole range), go back to root (while making calcs for both max exploit and ev), profit.
It may take a while for a whole game but it will be relatively fast for a flop. If the abstraction is so huge it won't be fast on the flop (like you know, you assume every size is possible) then cut the betting abstraction to like 3 sizes (for max exploit not for the bot) and calculate this way (so max exploit assuming that max exploit can use only 3 sizes).
The fact that you play flops/turns instantly suggest you have that stored. If that's the case then it really isn't a big computational challenge to do so. You can even easily split it to as many cores as you want.

Quote:
I object to this post. You are implying that I stated all the things you are saying. E.g., "you claim stuff that you have this amazing thing and people can learn a lot of from it then provide the number quantifying how good it is." But in post https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...postcount=1070 you only give links to quotes by Professor Sandholm, and you never clarified whom your different "the author"'s refer to. Please stop attributing quotes to me that I did not say.
By "you" I mean the team and by the "author" I referred to him (as he appears to be the main man behind the project) because he is the one which appears to be someone without much knowledge specifically about poker and making big claims about the bot.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:44 AM   #1112
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by restorativejustice View Post
Doug throwing out the passive-aggressive slam at Jason when, after catching the bot in a bluff, says something like "it must have thought Jason was still playing down here."

Question: Is the team getting frustrated with Jason bleeding money while they print it or is it all being rationalized to variance/card distribution?
Doug said he was getting to start sitting Jason on his PS tables after this was finished..
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Old 05-05-2015, 05:41 AM   #1113
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Who is jason on pokersrars??
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:42 AM   #1114
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

megabanny
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:46 AM   #1115
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by Apoccd10I View Post
Who is jason on pokersrars??
There was a discussion about this a few days ago. Its most likely PremiumWhey
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:10 AM   #1116
restorativejustice
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by f0ld44 View Post
megabanny
+1
This may never get old.
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:14 AM   #1117
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by SiQ View Post
i vote yes.
bjorn is clearly making an aggressive move towards doug.
I have been very impressed with Bjorn's style of play which he stated in stream was fashioned to be low variance but very exploitative of the bot. Certainly that has proven to be the case.

Doug may not be using his "A" game knowing he is on stream. I suspect that they will not play each other knowing that there are so many easier dollars to be made playing others.
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:31 AM   #1118
LoneUltralisk
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

the stream was fun to watch the first few days as they were working things out, it's a bit dull now
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:40 AM   #1119
mack's
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by KidKafka View Post
There was a discussion about this a few days ago. Its most likely PremiumWhey
Has premiumwhey been talking ****? Cheet's post history is 100% insecure hatred.

Also why would you name yourself premiumwhey when you have the build of a 70 year old man while being skinny fat
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Old 05-05-2015, 10:36 AM   #1120
restorativejustice
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Cheers
+1

The world is full of haters, some with justification and most without.
Well played.
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:20 PM   #1121
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

https://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/W...File/7185/6475

Found some interesting stuff on how this bot is interpreting and bucketing bet sizes from villian.

Quote:
If f changes abruptly at some x ∗ , then the
opponent could potentially significantly exploit us by bet-
ting slightly above or below x ∗ .
they're using:
Quote:
f(x) = ( (B − x)(1 + A) ) / ( (B − A)(1 + x) )
If I'm reading this right, x is the bet size of villian and A and B are the different bet sizes it will interpret it as (say check, halfpot, pot, overbet, 5x jam or whatever you guess they're using)

send it to the brains in the SMP forum and let them find the best bet sizes for value/bluffs.
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:56 PM   #1122
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

"brains of the SMP forum" LOL i think you're going to be disappointed
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:50 PM   #1123
restorativejustice
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Wow, the Professor lying in an interview right in front of Jason saying the match is "even" and that Claudico in in "fourth place." Huh?

It isn't a race with five contestants, it is a match between humans and Claudico with MIRRORED hands making the significant figure the difference in winnings between players and computer. How they rank in order is less than irrelevant it is misleading.

The Prof's ego got in the way of being honest. Good lesson for everyone not to believe everything you read/hear in the media.
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:23 PM   #1124
Joshua
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by restorativejustice View Post
Wow, the Professor lying in an interview right in front of Jason saying the match is "even" and that Claudico in in "fourth place." Huh?
I realize alot of work has gone into this project but wow. Just wow.

The Professor sounds more and more like someone who has gone all-in with everything he owns on a bet and refusing to accept defeat.
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:23 PM   #1125
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by restorativejustice View Post
Wow, the Professor lying in an interview right in front of Jason saying the match is "even" and that Claudico in in "fourth place." Huh?

It isn't a race with five contestants, it is a match between humans and Claudico with MIRRORED hands making the significant figure the difference in winnings between players and computer. How they rank in order is less than irrelevant it is misleading.

The Prof's ego got in the way of being honest. Good lesson for everyone not to believe everything you read/hear in the media.
Wow.
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