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Old 04-25-2015, 07:36 PM   #376
feedmykids2
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

flushie acting tilted and saying "COME ON, WHY IS THIS GUY TANKING FOREVER, THE POT IS 500 dollars!!"

this guy, and dollars. so funny.
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:39 PM   #377
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

WCG brainstorming with flushie that they have to check more to it to exploit its new tendency to go all in for ridiculous amounts relative to the pot. Meanwhile jason folded a 2 on an A3458 board (missed the action) when the bot went all in in a small pot.
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:43 PM   #378
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

wcg seems certain bot is using card removal, flushie not sure.

Last edited by tultfill; 04-25-2015 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:58 PM   #379
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by tultfill View Post
wcg seems certain bot is using card removal, flushie not sure.
What exactly do you mean by "using card removal"
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:03 PM   #380
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

i dont see how it could not
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:04 PM   #381
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by RussianRoulette View Post
What exactly do you mean by "using card removal"
Say you have 86o on a 9862 board with three spades out. River is a 9d and your opponent who checkraised you on the turn bets. Now instead of saying like: "Hey, my 2p just got counterfeited so I'm gonna give this one up" you say: "Hey, he can have a flush, but I block a lot of full houses so I will use this crappy hand to represent a full house" so you jam. Or say you get checkraised by your opponent on a QT3 board and you hold AT. Well if you had JJ you might reason that you block AJ, KJ, J9 so it's a fold but with AT you don't block KJ, (AJ), J9 and you block TT so you call.
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:05 PM   #382
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by Kirbynator View Post
i dont see how it could not
I don't think a lot of bots do.
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:05 PM   #383
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

How long last the break?
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:06 PM   #384
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

couldve just said "blockers" :P

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Originally Posted by tultfill View Post
I don't think a lot of bots do.
wouldnt the bots have simulated the differences between situations where they have blockers and those they dont? so they would naturally raise more with blockers, etc.

If bots didnt do that they wouldnt bluff more on rivers with the naked ace of a flush, which is absurd.
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:10 PM   #385
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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wouldnt the bots have simulated the differences between situations where they have blockers and those they dont? so they would naturally raise more with blockers, etc.

If bots didnt do that they wouldnt bluff more on rivers with the naked ace of a flush, which is absurd.
Some older solvers/AIs couldn't take blocker effect into account because they used heavy card abstraction (bucketing into categories etc.). That approach was doomed to failure because it turns out the blockers are one of the most important considerations in Holdem, especially in NL where the river bets are often huge.
From not very descriptive overview of Tartanian7 I've seen it seems the blockers should be taken into account (because they run MCFR without bucketting).
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:13 PM   #386
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

I understood about half of what you just said but good to know.

Definitely important. (probably least of all in holdem but still )
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:22 PM   #387
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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I understood about half of what you just said but good to know.
Let me reword it then because the tradition of naming stuff and using cryptic language to describe simple concepts is better left to academics and their papers.

Quote:
Some older solvers/AIs couldn't take blocker effect into account because they used heavy card abstraction (bucketing into categories etc.).
Card abstractions are ways of grouping similar (or kinda similar) hands together in hopes to reduce the size of the game and deal with only few categories (buckets) instead of all 1326 combos. The advantage is that you use less memory and you can compute things faster, disadvantage is that you lose the information about specific cards and can't tell a difference between say AsQh and AdQd on 7s 5s 3c 8s 3h board.

Quote:
From not very descriptive overview of Tartanian7 I've seen it seems the blockers should be taken into account (because they run MCFR without bucketting).
CFR is one popular self-play algorithm ("it plays against itself and evolves over million of iterations" in marketting terms), it just means it adjusts strategies trying to exploit at every step hoping that after enough steps of that for both players the almost equilibrium is reached (aka GTO).
MCFR is the same thing but instead of considering all the possiiblities (like all turn/river cards and all possible holdings in player's range) in all iterations it just plays some hands vs itself and tries to adjust from that. MCFR is exactly what human players do.
The description of Tartanian7 suggested that the way that particular bot does it is just play one hand at a time vs itself and adjusts. There is a way to make it mathematically sound if you play enough of those. If you only sample one hand for both opponents at every iteration then the blocker effect will be taken in consideration (because it will be clear over long run that AsQh has different ev than AdQd on that spade heavy board).
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:23 PM   #388
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Team Human up 85.7k after 10k hands. That's 8.57 bb/100.
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:26 PM   #389
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

When is it going to be back on ??
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:43 PM   #390
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

They're at it again.
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:54 PM   #391
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

its on, all 4 humans down in this session, around 70K in total lol, bot is coming..
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:04 PM   #392
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

lol the bot is running godly today

oh **** its up on mirrored hands too?
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:10 PM   #393
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

claudico crushing
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:35 PM   #394
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

This bot seems like its getting pretty difficult. I certainly would not want to be playing against it. Special thanks to wcg/jason/bjorn/dong for playing it and allowing it to be streamed. Something tells me when this is all said and done its going to be pretty epic. you guys will be legends.


To show more variance with how some mirrored hands can have completely different results.

(board/sizing's may not be exact but its close)
VS WCG
wcg 300 (KdTs), bot2100, wcg call
flop: K42dd
chk chk
Turn: 7h
bot 4200, wcg call
River: Ac
bot 13,200, wcg tank call.
Loses to AK

VS JasonLes
AK
bot opens 250, jason 800 (AK).
K42dd
jason bet 1.2k, call.
Turn: 7h
jason Bet 3k, call.
River: Ac
chk chk
Bot has KTo



It certainly doesn't help that Jason has some creepy guy standing behind him the whole time asking him questions. I would be super tilted trying to grind under those conditions.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:49 PM   #395
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

I understand that a bit is at stake here but it's weird they haven't tried huge overbets a lot more than they have.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:54 PM   #396
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by tultfill View Post
I understand that a bit is at stake here but it's weird they haven't tried huge overbets a lot more than they have.
I saw Doug do that a lot yesterday
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:54 PM   #397
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by tultfill View Post
I understand that a bit is at stake here but it's weird they haven't tried huge overbets a lot more than they have.
Yeah, i wish they would experiment with sizings a little more.


Towards the end Bjorn and Dong where in syncrho, it was quiet cool to watch.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:54 PM   #398
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Haha, cheet just xc xc and huge x/jam w As6c on Qs 6h 3d Js 2s or smt like that. Got the fold.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:57 PM   #399
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by sagoland View Post
Polk up 113k les down 113k. Bot have same hands as WCG against Les. Les have same hands as bot have against WCG.
Confirmed. WCG himself is a GTO bot
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:57 PM   #400
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by tultfill View Post
Haha, cheet just xc xc and huge x/jam w As6c on Qs 6h 3d Js 2s or smt like that. Got the fold.
Any chance you remember what Doug had in that spot ??
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