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Old 04-25-2015, 08:49 AM   #251
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by restorativejustice View Post
I think the humans are already getting both sides of the cards each round: Upstairs humans are getting bot's downstairs cards and downstairs humans are getting bot's upstairs cards. Jason Les, from the hands I saw, is just playing very poorly and not making the same insights that Doug did.
Agreed. After analyzing Les' hands yesterday, I think it's clear he needs to adjust today and start folding more sets. I mean, what's with this station? Guy never saw a set he didn't like.
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:50 AM   #252
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by partywme View Post
Also les isn't even close to being one of the best HU players in the world, when they (evil empire) was doing those power rankings at no point did his name come up in top 20.

Why isn't Klink playing instead of les?
Les is "megabanny" on Stars and therefore quite indisputably in the top 10
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:04 AM   #253
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

rekt.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:04 AM   #254
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by tultfill View Post
I'm not very surprised. I beat the neopokerbot for a similar winrate over ~13k hands and was experimenting quite a lot before I settled for an easy profitable strategy. I think that if you gave Team Human 3k practice hands, an interface like stars or tilt, instant reply instead of these 3 min river tanks, better service (like not having them beg for water) and a secluded area (not in the middle of a casino where people shout and supervisors and programmers blabbering in their ears you would see winrates closer to 40bb/100, maybe more.

The bot is no different than other bots. It has a hard time vs bets that aren't in the vicinity of 1/3pot-1pot, it doesn't seem to utilize card removal, it bluffs badly and huge bets are nuts. I mean it jams for 19x pot and shows up with second backdoored nut straight, how can that be a part of any sound strategy?
I was under the impression that the neopokerbot available online played in different settings? I remember when I played it, it had multiple open sizes if you restart the game.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:17 AM   #255
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by sagoland View Post
Les has been getting the same cards as bot´s getting against WCG and is down 70k, bot is down 115k so not so bad by Les. Still a problem though beein down so much against bot.
no. you're failing to understand that it's the difference which is important. doug gets same cards vs bot that bot gets vs les. doug wins 115k from bot while bot can only win 70k from les, it means that the humans are playing better because they are winning more/losing less with the same hands as the bot

it would likely be impossible for les to win over that particular sample of hands
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:21 AM   #256
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

Doug also ran ridiculously hot with his choice of 3 betting/raising limp hands (also iirc a hand where he x/c T9 on AK7 and rivered nuts). He was always getting there in bigger pots where the AI wouldn't necessarily play for the same size of the pot (or maybe even would have folded before the river).

Anyway it's early days but bots don't seem as scary as first thought.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:26 AM   #257
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Pretty sure that for the programmer's team it's not "pointless". They are allowed to change the bot, and will do so, to improve the AI and learn for the future. I would be disappointed if after forur days or w/e they threw in the towel, because decreasing the human's WR significantly over the full course of the match will be a great achievement by itself.
Whereas that is true, I frankly expect the opposite to happen. I expect team hooman to come up with a better gameplan every day. All four will mindonk flops today with ideas what to do on later streets. The programmers will not be able to adjust the program fast enough is what I expect and the adjustments wont be very good I think. The lead-programmer apparently has no idea how poker and game theory work and this is pure game theory now. So I think the exploits will become more extreme and the bot will be havocked in a few days. I feel a bit sorry for the head programmer, he seemed to be rather proud of his machine, but seems like it will take a few more years for them to come up with something good.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:28 AM   #258
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by +rep_lol View Post
no. you're failing to understand that it's the difference which is important. doug gets same cards vs bot that bot gets vs les. doug wins 115k from bot while bot can only win 70k from les, it means that the humans are playing better because they are winning more/losing less with the same hands as the bot

it would likely be impossible for les to win over that particular sample of hands
This doesn't follow. A particular set of outcomes can make a worse strategy do better, even reciprocally, than a better strategy. As a basic thought experiment, consider that two players play hands in exactly the same way except one person always folds draws facing an all-in even when getting the right price. If the draws happen to miss, does that mean the person folding is playing better?
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:29 AM   #259
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
Doug also ran ridiculously hot with his choice of 3 betting/raising limp hands (also iirc a hand where he x/c T9 on AK7 and rivered nuts). He was always getting there in bigger pots where the AI wouldn't necessarily play for the same size of the pot (or maybe even would have folded before the river).

Anyway it's early days but bots don't seem as scary as first thought.
floating flops with low equity and getting there from time to time is pretty standard, what you didn't mention tho is that when doug rivers the nuts in that hand he overbets allin and gets paid- effective betsizing makes a world of difference and it's pretty clear that this bot is just clicking random buttons with its sizing in general.

this will continue to be a bloodbath
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:29 AM   #260
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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This doesn't follow. A particular set of outcomes can make a worse strategy do better, even reciprocally, than a better strategy. As a basic thought experiment, consider that two players play hands in exactly the same way except one person always folds draws facing an all-in even when getting the right price. If the draws happen to miss, does that mean the person folding is playing better?
lol dude, these guys are 4 of the best hunl players in the world, they're not just playing like dolts and getting lucky ffs
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:32 AM   #261
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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The lead-programmer apparently has no idea how poker and game theory work and this is pure game theory now ... I feel a bit sorry for the head programmer, he seemed to be rather proud of his machine, but seems like it will take a few more years for them to come up with something good.
True ... I also feel almost sorry for the guy, and no matter how bad this bot may lose eventually, and even though Tuomas didn't even seem to know what a donk bet is: I still have huge respect for him and his team.

You may be right, humans might adapt better than the bot in the days to come, but either way, I'm happy to follow the fight till the end ... sure enough, in a few years, one bot will destroy humans so badly, that the porgrammer team will feel sorry for the humans
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:36 AM   #262
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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But if the programmer can adjust the Bot and so on for the next day, then u cant call it AI can u? I mean the bot doesnt have to adjust to the game by himself and not by the programmer. Or do i miss something?
pretty sure i heard the "programmer" say many times that they don't program any strategy into the bot. they created an algorithm that comes up with it's own strategy, and will adjust it's own strategy over night during the challenge.

really interested to see how the bot adjusts over the coming sessions
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:37 AM   #263
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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lol dude, these guys are 4 of the best hunl players in the world, they're not just playing like dolts and getting lucky ffs
You're missing the point. That was just an example. Especially over smaller samples, even if both are playing the same hands and boards against the same strategy (let's call it strategy X), the fact that strategy A gets better results than strategy B does not necessarily imply that strategy A is superior to strategy B against strategy X. With that said, the stdevbb/100 will be much lower.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:40 AM   #264
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by +rep_lol View Post
no. you're failing to understand that it's the difference which is important. doug gets same cards vs bot that bot gets vs les. doug wins 115k from bot while bot can only win 70k from les, it means that the humans are playing better because they are winning more/losing less with the same hands as the bot

it would likely be impossible for les to win over that particular sample of hands
I agree and I highlighted the difference. Lets hope then that the secondary table guys will swap places so Les dont need to play against WCGs cards hahaha.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:42 AM   #265
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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lol dude, these guys are 4 of the best hunl players in the world, they're not just playing like dolts and getting lucky ffs
If you don't understand that luck still exists in duplicate poker then lol you.

No one is disputing that these guys are good, and that it looks like the bots have some leaks so far.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:44 AM   #266
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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You're missing the point. That was just an example. Especially over smaller samples, even if both are playing the same hands and boards against the same strategy (let's call it strategy X), the fact that strategy A gets better results than strategy B does not necessarily imply that strategy A is superior to strategy B against strategy X. With that said, the stdevbb/100 will be much lower.
what i'm telling you, and the point you're missing, is that their strategies are not a whole lot different and both les and wcg are world class at making adjustments, so your "thought experiment" is pretty ridiculous
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:46 AM   #267
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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If you don't understand that luck still exists in duplicate poker then lol you.

No one is disputing that these guys are good, and that it looks like the bots have some leaks so far.
pretty sure i understand more about poker than you do, but w/e

look, this one random guy said it was a problem that les was losing so much to the bot. i explained why it's not a problem and that really isn't up for debate, so i don't know why you're trying to argue
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:49 AM   #268
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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If you don't understand that luck still exists in duplicate poker then lol you.
Of course it does but it will be very interesting to measure how standard deviation changes in duplicate poker comparing to normal one. It's a pity HHs won't be released though so we won't be able to see it unless someone datamines the Twitch stream
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:55 AM   #269
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by +rep_lol View Post
pretty sure i understand more about poker than you do, but w/e

look, this one random guy said it was a problem that les was losing so much to the bot. i explained why it's not a problem and that really isn't up for debate, so i don't know why you're trying to argue
Ok so that "still a problem" sentence wasnt that well thought but I guess you wanna see all humans beating the bot.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:56 AM   #270
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by +rep_lol View Post
what i'm telling you, and the point you're missing, is that their strategies are not a whole lot different and both les and wcg are world class at making adjustments, so your "thought experiment" is pretty ridiculous
I'm talking about wcg/dong and the bot. Obviously the comparison is completely inappropriate with the other human team. It's not a matter of how good the player is (that's pretty much irrelevant), it's a matter of variance.
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Old 04-25-2015, 10:01 AM   #271
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

wtf are you even talking about

wcg is teamed with les, not donger
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Old 04-25-2015, 10:14 AM   #272
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

So WCG/Les are the ones playing the same cards (idk, I haven't been watching)? If so then just replace dong with les
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Old 04-25-2015, 10:17 AM   #273
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

k bro i'm gonna bow out now, if you want to tard up this thread any further you'll have to do it alone or with somebody else

looking forward to more streaming later today, anybody have any idea what time it may start again?
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Old 04-25-2015, 10:26 AM   #274
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

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Originally Posted by DrRepper View Post
pretty sure i heard the "programmer" say many times that they don't program any strategy into the bot. they created an algorithm that comes up with it's own strategy, and will adjust it's own strategy over night during the challenge.

really interested to see how the bot adjusts over the coming sessions
ah ok. that make sense. thought the programmers are changing strategys and pattern manually. cause if it is so, the project would be kinda useless
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Old 04-25-2015, 10:30 AM   #275
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Re: WCGRider, Dong Kim, Jason Les and Bjorn Li to play against a new HU bot

I only watched wcg stream yesterday- and IMO he ran well in terms of the duplicate poker scenario (won more than the bot having been lucky with runouts for his 3bet/raise limp range).

I agree that it's a shame hhs won't be provided.
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