And how about the sociable outgoing pros that drink with the whales, go out of their way to give action but.....


DONT POACH WHALES FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT

now do you see why theres a problem

Nope.

This is kind of dumb. No one "owns" whales so they can't be poached. Everyone has an equal shot at starting private games, only those with good social skills have the ability to pull it off.

As far as playing at the same table with his horses, due to the immense variance in poker I doubt there are many high stakes games where some players aren't sharing some amount of action. The casinos don't care, and as long as you don't change how you play it's ethical.

WHALES CAN THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND PLAY WITH WHO THEY CHOOSE

D you see that the problem w your bitter, selfish argument is that it's based on the assumption that whales (who are usually successful/smart/self-aware unless they are trust fund babies) not only cant figure out where and who they want to play with, but simply have no choice in the matter?

There are different ethical ways to make money in poker (the staking/playing at same table thing may be wrong, I don't know enough about it). Being a quiet nitty headphone-wearing pro that stares people down is one ethical way. Competing w the casino's card room for business and parlaying social/networking skills into more profitable situations are other ways.

The whole point of poker is to make money. Whether it's negotiating favorable games in a mix, taking the best seat, staking people, being an affiliate, or refusing to play in games that deteriorate to the point where they aren't profitable, there are many more ways to make mucho dinero thru poker than just playing/running better than the players sitting across from you. It will not stop bc of your flawed argument, nor should it. A self described rec (who prob falls into the category of successful and self-aware) has stated his review of playing w Dr Evil here as a positive experience. What more do you need to hear?

Yes.

Why would a 28 year old with a million dollars in cash choose to live with six other low to mid stakes live poker grinders?

Cash game horses make absolutely no sense. You train them to become winners, then once they become a winner, they have absolutely no reason to stick around.

Shot taking a big game with a whale would make sense to have a backer, and that is it.

Anybody good enough to beat the game for any amount of money sure as hell isn't stupid to stick around because they are getting such a great deal of only having to give away 1/3 of their winnings!

I don't think Mr. Power is doing anything wrong by hosting private games and what not. That being said I have never hosted a private game and it would feel weird playing in a game that I hosted. How do you bust a fish and then shake his hand at the end of the night? Yea buddy thanks for coming sorry you lost $50k in my home game, with my dealers, and my horses, at my house. Your money is always good here! lol

The main issue I see that happens when you play with your horses is texting during play, "what did you have, what did he have, that kinda thing" and also if you're in a pot with your horse and a fish that folds alot how do you keep from bluffing? Assuming you get 1/2 of your horses winnings AND he probably folds to you alot, it seems like that would be an unfair edge.

THAT BEING SAID- Do you still play blackjack? People that take money out of the poker economy and give it to the casino are really shafting the poker community

FYP

Depending on the deal, it's actually rarely worth changing play style. He gets 100% of his own profits and loses 100% of the money he loses. He only gets some percentage of his horse's winnings and loses in the long run that same percentage. There's very few situations I can think of where he could take an action that would be +ev to him with the staking arrangement and -ev when not. It would have to be a situation where it was extremely close ev-wise pre stake and significantly helped out his horse. I can see those coming up occasionally but I'd be surprised if he spends time thinking about them so he probably wouldn't take them and further if he did take them they would result in a negligible amount of profit. If they both had 50% of each other it would be completely different and super unethical but that's not the arrangement being discussed here.

How do you handle it when the fish busts you for $50k? You shake his hand, tell him nicely played, that you are done for the night but look forward to playing with him again. It's not like Chad wins every session, I play midstakes limit Holdem and mix games and win about 56% of my sessions, which works out to a decent win rate. Even if Chad is a better player than me and NL has bigger edges (both almost certainly true), I doubt he wins much more than 60% of his sessions. Poker is a great game and great entertainment because edges are small and bad players can win almost as often as they lose.

You play enough with the same players that whenever you have a big win if it bothers him you can always remind him of the big wins he's had vs you.

Texting hands during play with another player at the table can be sketchy, or not. "Frank isn't going to fold a hand, is he? lol" is a lot different than "frank couldn't have trips that 55x flop vs you cause I folded a 5". Casual observations should be fine as long as you aren't giving specific range/tell information during the game (tho obviously fine away from game).

But if you want to play ethically you can't adjust for the stake, and you have to play just as hard vs your horse/staker as other players. It's part of being a good pro as well, it's fine for fish to soft play hands vs their friends/favorites, but if you want it to be your profession you can never give customers reason to think you are team playing.

If I play high stakes (for me that might be 100-200 or higher) I might sell off up some of my action, say 25% to minimize variance. If for some reason the person I sold action to is in the game I'm always playing them as hard than anyone else.

And winning players don't take money out if the poker ecosystem by playing blackjack, any more than they do by buying a car or a hooker.

FWIW Chad has invited me to a couple of those games - and I doubt I'm what you would consider a whale. But I am friendly and outgoing at the table and win and lose with equal equanimity.

At at least at MDL I don't think they were "private games" per se, but he did fill the initial list with invited players.

Chad - I'm not sure of how it works when someone on the initial table leaves - does it open up to others not on the original list?

I initially wanted to dismiss your idea about collusion but these are valid points. Personally, I would make a conscious effort to treat my horses as regular opponents and treat the money they have on the table as theirs, not mine. However, I know this is not how 99% of winning poker players think and I don't think it's likely that they change the way they think. (they are always looking at ways to get an edge)

Because he loves money?! Renting to roommates is literally the easiest way in the world to make good money (And it essentially turns your primary residence into an actual investment that pays for itself). It's shocking to me that more people don't do it. It's probably the primary reason I never got anywhere close to busto as a live pro despite starting at 2/5 with a $10k life roll and very limited knowledge of lol liveaments.

Even if all this is true, I don't understand why you think it makes absolutely no sense. If a horse leaves you just get a new horse to replace him.

Yeah, home games are super shady. Been in one where the guy running it literally told a house player to call my shove when I was in a 3 way pot with both of them. I make it a point to avoid those games.

I suspect he wins a decent amount more than 60% of his sessions in these super soft games, and more importantly his wins are going to be much larger on average than that of the whales. That being said, you are right that it's all about the way he phrases things to the whales. I'm sure they are fine with him winning in general as long as their are no apparent improprieties.


If they have an compulsion/addiction to gambling they do. I just don't see an ethical issue with taking money out of the poker ecosystem though.

Collusion isn't much of a worry in HU pots. I don't know the specifics of Chad's staking arrangements, nor am I asking that. But in the 44 hypothetical you wrote, Chad would still have an incentive to set mine ... and would in fact be more likely to do so because he's getting a discount if he loses. It's much more worrisome in multiway pots where a fish like me is in a pot with both chad and one of his horses.

Zach you're right that it's one sided but it's sided for kydd. There's major incentive for him to enter pots with his horses and protect equity if he gets 50% of their winnings. I'd argue it's even more beneficial for kydd not to have a 50/50 agreement with his horses. His horses are way worse than him, he's able to play extremely aggro/ advertise because he gets a 50% rebate if he loses to them, and there's extreme pressure on the horse not to do anything to **** up the staking agreement. There's a very big edge.

Heh, did I just see a ninja edit?

Yeah being a successful live pro is so easy you can live off half your winnings, move up stakes and build both a poker roll and life roll playing 2/5.

I'd love to know what percentage of Chad's horses get off the tit as winning 5-T players adequately rolled for poker and life. Ima guess the answer is very few.

And yeah when a horse leAves the stable a new one comes in. You can't multi table live. Chad seems to have found the next best thing. Duplicate himself at the tables by training up clones.

How can someone steal a whale? People are entitled to take their money and play wherever they please. You're not entitled to any given number of people donking off their money at your high stake game if they'd prefer to play elsewhere.

losing hundreds of thousands over the course of your life is not the same as spending money on a car or a hooker. You might as well say dating is in the same category and so are vacations, except you can dust off $50k in one night playing blackjack, while the most you lose on the above is a few thousand dollars. There is no excuse for taking $50k (in one night!) completely out of the poker economy

have there been any successful chad clones? Do the players play crazy like he does or do they nit it up?

I know of 2 personally who "moved on". One sort whigged out and it didn't end well.

This was well documented on 2+2.

The other moved on and (according to his account, documented on a fairly well known poker podcast) left on good terms with a 20k total life/poker roll.

I don't understand the hate for Chad's staking arrangements. It's a free country last time I checked and Chad and his horses are free to make any arrangements they choose.

I agree with that

Howard, I don't think many are challenging Chad's personality. He obviously comes off very professional and likable at the tables.

The issue raised is the gray area of ethics of multiple horses playing at the same table. It's just really bizarre and if I were ever to run a stable I would not allow it.

Whether they are all the sons of God or not, their honesty/ethics cannot be a part of the argument. It's just simply a situation that should not be allowed because of the direct conflict of interest.

I have been asked to change tables on two separate occasions from my gf...I can't see how a room could ever be ok with what Chad does. Hence my theory of the article, it's a bit of a preemptive strike to make his stable "normal" in the eyes of the community.

The private game issue I think is an entirely different argument that has been beaten to death already. Have a better social game than Chad, or become his friend. That's life kids.

I still think the tea thing is pretty funny.

If I play with him again, i will now start asking chad if any of his staked players are at the table