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Old 03-15-2017, 10:03 AM   #101
Kelvis
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by sfetaz View Post
The answer is 65/365:

Imagine a 10 man SNG. The buyin is $200 + $800. If you don't include the entry fee, you have 400% rake. You can never rake more than 100% of a pot or prize pool. You can say the entry fee is 400% of the buy in, but the rake is 1000 - 800 = 80% rake, 20% left for players.
What is the title of this thread?
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:33 AM   #102
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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You can never rake more than 100% of a pot or prize pool.
Of course you can. 100% of the $10 pot plus $10 from the winners pocket goes to the house. Now rake is 200% of the pot.
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Old 03-15-2017, 04:13 PM   #103
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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What is the title of this thread?
For Math and Roi purposes especially for professional poker players you can't use the 400% number. It doesn't work. Usually poker professionals look at things in terms of their investment not in terms of raw numbers.

It's like when someone says having suited cards increases your winning percentage by 3. No it doesn't. If you have 3% equity and now you have 6% equity your odds of winning didn't increase 3%. They increased 100%. You doubled the number of hands you win. The house didn't take away 400% of your investment, it's not possible

Last edited by sfetaz; 03-15-2017 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 03-15-2017, 04:14 PM   #104
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Of course you can. 100% of the $10 pot plus $10 from the winners pocket goes to the house. Now rake is 200% of the pot.
Yeah good luck with that one
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Old 03-15-2017, 04:37 PM   #105
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Does anybody know how much in fees were paid 10 years ago by the tourney circuit players playing a full schedule and how much it is now?
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:30 PM   #106
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

What about the 25% of your winnings that is for federal taxes on anything over $1100? Not counting state taxes...
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Old 03-15-2017, 06:18 PM   #107
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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What about the 25% of your winnings that is for federal taxes on anything over $1100? Not counting state taxes...

That's not how taxes work.
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Old 03-15-2017, 07:04 PM   #108
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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ok so i decide i want to play in some opening event at harrahs for $365. i then look at the structure to see that only $300 of that is for the prize pool. WHAT? i will admit i mostly play online and live plo. so i may be out of touch with live tourament fees. is this not a ridiculous fee? i am aware it includes tip but i have been under the impression 3% of winnings is fair to tip dealers. i mean this is over ****ing 20 percent. is this not bananas? am i just naive? last tourney i played was a 350+50(almost two years ago) so i guess this isnt too far off the standard, but who is playing in these and why? there has to be some way for casinos to make the fees more reasonable. i understand it takes a lot of dealers to run the tourney and a few directors etc. but dont casinos realize they would get more players with less fees. and at least a small percentage of these guys would end up in pits or playing cash games round the clock? it's called a loss leader people. maybe other people arent as cheap as me idk. but this just seems stupid.
No offense but you don't play live much. Daily tourney usually have rake that is close to 35 percent. This is a fairly good deal for low live tournaments. The dailies with 35 percent might not be beatable for anything after real life expenses ie transportation, meals, tips.
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Old 03-15-2017, 07:49 PM   #109
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by sfetaz View Post
For Math and Roi purposes especially for professional poker players you can't use the 400% number. It doesn't work. Usually poker professionals look at things in terms of their investment not in terms of raw numbers.

It's like when someone says having suited cards increases your winning percentage by 3. No it doesn't. If you have 3% equity and now you have 6% equity your odds of winning didn't increase 3%. They increased 100%. You doubled the number of hands you win. The house didn't take away 400% of your investment, it's not possible
They took a 400% charge on your bet. Totally possible.
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Old 03-16-2017, 02:07 AM   #110
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Does anybody know how much in fees were paid 10 years ago by the tourney circuit players playing a full schedule and how much it is now?
Back then most casinos were charging 300+40 and 500+60. Bellagio even used to run daily 500+40s. Wynn had some as well.

In 2007 the WSOPc stop in Tunica was actually 300+30 and 500+50. I wouldn't have even remembered that if I didn't check my spreadsheet.

In 2009 the Caesars Megastack ran its ME at $1,000+60.

Through all this Venetian's DSE had the standard 340 and 560s. Not sure what they're at now.

Most of today's WSOPc stops run 300+65, 500+80, and the MEs at $1,500+175.
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:25 PM   #111
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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That's not how taxes work.
Then how do they work?

Last time I cashed for 2k, I opted to pay taxes on the spot. 25% federal, 6.35% state..
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:28 PM   #112
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

You paid estimated tax. If your tax bracket ended up higher than 25% you would owe additional tax unless you had losses to offset. You owe taxes based on your tax bracket on every cash. There is no minimum threshold. You can deduct losses up to the amount won in a given year. That's how they work, assuming you live and win in USA#1
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:42 PM   #113
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Would someone please answer another question since I'm curious:

Is there some sense of how pro circuit players fared overall 10 years ago as opposed to now?
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:11 PM   #114
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by dark_horse View Post

In 2007 the WSOPc stop in Tunica was actually 300+30 and 500+50. I wouldn't have even remembered that if I didn't check my spreadsheet.
This sounds right, but a lot of these circuit stops had a $20 add on that wasn't obvious from the structure sheet.
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:50 AM   #115
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

$ well going way back. the wsop tournament were 25$ or 50$ juice for the house on all the 1,000 and up tournaments and no juice for the 10,000 tournament. i think only the ladies and employees(dealers) tournament were less than 1,000 buyin.

plus everyone around got all meals free, whatever they wanted whenever they wanted, and full power of the pen for the bar. oh, and a free room for the whole tournament of 5 weeks,. oh, and getting specials favors like free tickets to events.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:59 AM   #116
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Comparing fees based on buy-ins from ten years ago makes little sense. It's not the casinos fault that most players probably play smaller avg. buy-ins than in the past. Just because the $300 that go to the price pool aren't adjusted for inflation doesn't mean the fees don't have to be adjusted.

Would make more sense to compare the fees to the increase of cost of other activities at the casino like table games, restaurants or even nightclubs if they have one. Or leave the gambling area and check movie or NFL tickets.
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:46 AM   #117
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by Ray Zee View Post
$ well going way back. the wsop tournament were 25$ or 50$ juice for the house on all the 1,000 and up tournaments and no juice for the 10,000 tournament. i think only the ladies and employees(dealers) tournament were less than 1,000 buyin.

plus everyone around got all meals free, whatever they wanted whenever they wanted, and full power of the pen for the bar. oh, and a free room for the whole tournament of 5 weeks,. oh, and getting specials favors like free tickets to events.
The tournaments were also likely much, much softer back then.
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:16 AM   #118
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

People who think rake is too high simply need to play more re-entry tourneys. Buy in 2-3 times, there's no vig on re-entry, bingo you paid a smaller % rake. EZ game.
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:44 AM   #119
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

Not sure what venues you're playing at, but at mine each re-entry comes with another payment of the rake.
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:53 AM   #120
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

tournaments had much fewer players back then mostly 200 or 100 or less. but the players were all real card players and higher stake gamblers. so they were much more card and gambling savey than todays fields.
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:41 PM   #121
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

people play 6/5 bj
hell people play casino games regularly and you're surprised people don't care about paying 20 extra dollars in rake?
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Old 03-18-2017, 07:12 PM   #122
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by sw_emigre View Post
People who think rake is too high simply need to play more re-entry tourneys. Buy in 2-3 times, there's no vig on re-entry, bingo you paid a smaller % rake. EZ game.
Most tournaments rake the same amount on any re-entry that they did on the initial buyin. Re-buys usually didn't have any extra fees, but at most venues, re-entry has replaced re-buy tournaments.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:24 PM   #123
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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maybe a few, but doubtful to any meaningful degree

Number of entries for a $300+65 500K Guarantee = 1,956

Number of entries for a $320+45 500K Guarantee = about the same



because $300 x 1,956 x 16% = $93,888

$93,888 > $365
A Casino is going to spend around 62k in employee wages for a tourney this size, ie. Dealers, directors, managers, cage personal, and restroom butlers. So 98k-62k leaves 36k 15k of that is dealer tips. Thus giving casino 21k left for overhead and profits, this is not a lot considering how much profits the casino gaming floor make compared to the poker room. I for one am grateful that they have poker rooms with dealers and directors so I can play a game I love. If your looking to make a living at poker then this is an expense you will have to live with...

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Old 03-19-2017, 01:37 AM   #124
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Comparing fees based on buy-ins from ten years ago makes little sense. It's not the casinos fault that most players probably play smaller avg. buy-ins than in the past. Just because the $300 that go to the price pool aren't adjusted for inflation doesn't mean the fees don't have to be adjusted.

Would make more sense to compare the fees to the increase of cost of other activities at the casino like table games, restaurants or even nightclubs if they have one. Or leave the gambling area and check movie or NFL tickets.
I'm the one that asked what the fees were 10 years ago and I want to clarify: I was just trying to get an idea of how much tougher it is these days to make a living grinding the circuit and did not intend to imply that the rooms are gouging the players.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:33 AM   #125
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Re: VIEW: WSOP has lost its mind concerning tournament fees

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Originally Posted by TFing View Post
A Casino is going to spend around 62k in employee wages for a tourney this size, ie. Dealers, directors, managers, cage personal, and restroom butlers. So 98k-62k leaves 36k 15k of that is dealer tips. Thus giving casino 21k left for overhead and profits, this is not a lot considering how much profits the casino gaming floor make compared to the poker room. I for one am grateful that they have poker rooms with dealers and directors so I can play a game I love. If your looking to make a living at poker then this is an expense you will have to live with...

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If they don't make any real money with hosting tournaments why would they do it? My guess is that the extra additional revenue from those 2000 players at the casino makes it quite worth it and basically makes a tournament a marketing trick that actually makes a profit on top too.
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